ST Dialogue In The ST

I wouldn't have a problem with Whedonesque dialogue in Star Wars; the problem is that Abrams and Johnson have been really quite bad at imitating Whedon.

 

I haven't seen Solo yet.

I will...I'm just gun-shy. But that right there, the "mangy Kashyykian moof milker", is reasons I love most of the dialog in a SW film.

 

From the TLJ blue ray extras. I believe I saw that DR & MH did a read through together with RJ & KK present

 

I have a problem with it because I don't think Star Wars is an appropriate subject for Whedonesque dialogue. Star Wars is old-fashioned, earnest, straightforward. Whedon is post-modern, self-referential, meta.

I love Joss Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of my favorite TV shows) but that doesn't mean his approach works for all subject matter.

 

Yeah, I love the show too (perfect blend of emotional drama and comedic charm) but it doesn't suit Star Wars stylistically.

If that is what JJ and RJ were going for it was pretty hit-and-miss. There were a few funny moments that worked for me, I chuckled at "That's not how the force works!", and a lighter tone particularly early on (namely in TFA) helps a lot to get things moving. TLJ was too uneven with the tone of mood, the jokes seemed a little artificial.

Like I know it has been said, but Poe's joke to Kylo at the start of TFA was appropriate, the joke to Hux at the start of TLJ was badly timed. One is a deserved hit on Kylo's inflated ego and an attempt by Poe to hold it together in the face of being captured, the other is a far-fetched stall that makes me wonder why the First Order doesn't just blast Poe out of the sky.
It just doesn't feel right... the X-wing floating there communicating with the bad guys ship after Starkiller base has just been obliterated seems off.

I did like one of Rey and Kylo's communications starting with "I'd rather not do this right now." "Yeah, me too."
That is the only time I can remember Kylo actually making a joke.

Revenge of the Sith's lighter opening sequence before things spiralled hit the mark I think, I wonder how things will be handled in Ep nine. I don't even know if it will be a story that is meant to be tragic, we know so little so far.

On the general topic, remember the OT had relatively modern dialogue for it's time, especially the regular Rebellion type characters. The Jedi and Sith indeed talked more formally.
With the PT I think the flowery dialogue was at it's most effective in Revenge of the Sith, but it is only some of the lines.
Like "His fate will be the same as ours" is meaningful.
And "Have faith, my love." sounds ironically unsettling.

 

Or maybe us fans need to have a better sense of humor, and less paper-thin skins, and see this kind of thing as an opportunity to laugh at ourselves about our obsessions, rather than taking offense (often rather pathetically). And to respond preemptively, this is not a command to anyone here or elsewhere. Just a polite suggestion for the whole lot of us.

 

It would have been funnier if Riandidn't come up with an actual story that proved to be poorer than many fan suggestions to begin with.

 

I don’t necessarily disagree. But I still think it’s healthy to laugh at our obsessive theorizing. We all do it. And it’s funny and kinda crazy. Case closed.

 

I agree. It's just that I'm not going to find it at all credible coming from him.

 

It isn't funny to me. It wouldn't be funny if someone destroyed the pyramids. It wouldn't be funny if someone defaced the Mona Lisa. It wouldn't be funny if someone burned down Disneyland. I don't see why it's funny that this guy deliberately set out to damage the Star Wars franchise.

I know that's an extreme statement, but as a die hard SW fan, one who has gone over the evidence, meaning watching the movie over and over and over, listening to all of RJ's interviews, listening to Hamill's interviews, Lucas' interviews, along with comments from the story group and others involved... I have come to the conclusion that RJ was not motivated to make a great SW movie. He was motivated to make a controversial movie, one that purposely changed and subverted the franchise into something else. The picture above is a shining example of that. If you wanna call it funny, I'll go along with that... What's funny about it? Well, the joke here would obviously be that all the fans have these crazy Snoke theories, and here's the one guy who knows the real answer... and he's basically saying, hey, all the crazy ideas I've heard from fans out there aren't very good, and none of them live up to the real answer I've got cooking which is coming soon, so get excited people...because those theories you have? Compared to what you're going to get, they suck. That's the only logical way to interpret the joke IMO.

Unless...the joke actually was on us...as in...our Snoke theories suck because there is no answer. And fans are too obsessive and now they're about to be taught a lesson. I think that's where the joke was actually coming from... I don't think it's that different than every time Finn and Rose exchange that look, as if to say, did that actually just happen in a SW movie? After the third of foruth instance of that... you have to feel like RJ knew how stupid it all was... as if somehow for some reason he wanted to ruin it all for us.

I find more humor in the idea that RJ keeps tweeting out positive reviews, even when the reviews acknowledge how bad most fans thought the movie was... When someone can ignore the adamant objections of Mark Hamill, his lead actor and a founding member of the franchise, and yet push these random good reviews, I think it reveals a level of denial that is truly hilarious. So for anyone out there who doesn't feel like laughing at their own SW obsession, perhaps check out RJ's twitter.

 

I don't take it personally when RJ mocks the fans. I'm far too much of a narcissist to care what strangers think of me and a group of strangers. I just don't want to see meta dialogue in the film that comes off as mockery. I want a story, not a reflective/passive aggressive analysis of me and others in the audience.

Personally, I don't really think we need to laugh at ourselves for theorizing. If RJ and others think such a thing is funny, that's cool, but to me it's no different than having a favorite show you watch daily, or a favorite book. It's an escape. Marvel theory videos are all over youtube. My daughter loves them. She also loves HP theory videos, and theory videos for other book series that she loves. Those other franchises have never felt the need to make fun of her for thinking theories are fun. And if RJ wants to mock her or the rest of us, who cares? He can waste his time feeling superior to strangers over what entertains them all he wants. But it is a buzz kill when we're here to get immersed in the stories and care where they go, and instead of fiction we get meta commentary that isn't interesting or deep or worthwhile.

 

Honestly beyond maybe a few lines, (Kanjiclub, thats not how the Force works, etc.) none of the dialogue is very memorable to me.

 

I'm a person who finds it insulting. I think RJ is a troll. And tone-deaf to Mark Hammil and the fans criticisms.

Like his comments that the complaints against TLJ's portrayal of Luke Skywalker are based on our just seeing Luke as the media and fans have built him up in their heads over the years (?!?) rather than looking at what Luke says and does in the OT. It's like he purposely stated the inverse of the actual fact - the way he is in the OT is exactly what we are basing the complaints on. It's there in Luke's words and actions, I can't understand how Rian can so miss the mark. Yes, 30 years will change a person. But he would have to be senile or suffering from a mental disorder to go so against his own established belief system, one that basically nothing ever steered him from in the OT.

It is frankly bizarre. I enjoy the film more when I try to partially ignore the creator's intention, and that isn't a good sign.

 

I don't really do any theorizing. Not my thing. But I laugh when people come up with zany theories, they crack me up. I laugh with them, though, not at them. I'm having the same fun they are. If the theory is presented seriously as a possibility, well, most of the time I don't read the threads where those would show up. When I do come across them, if I think it's cool, I post "cool theory, man!" as a pat on the back or just give them a like. If I think it's lame, I usually just move on.

I'm...not really familiar with how RJ interacts with fans. I don't follow that sort of thing. I don't pay attention to social media. I generally don't care what RJ has to say about anything. But I have seen some comments from RJ that weren't made in good fun. They seemed deliberately provocative and trollish. Sometimes mean spirited.

Idk because I don't follow it, but I don't think this concept of RJ mocking fans like a jerk would exist if he always laughed with fans instead of laughing at them. Or, in case of super serious theories, saying "cool, man" or not saying anything at all if he doesn't have anything nice to say.

 

I agree that it is funny for US to laugh at our obsessive theorizing. It is not funny when RJ laughs at fans. It is 100% toxic.

 

I wouldn't even mind had he given us some decent answers!

To stay on topic:

My favorite line of dialogue in TLJ: "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters." RJ deserves a lot of credit for that line, IMO.
My least favorite line of dialogue in TLJ: "Han was...Han about it." This line crystallizes everything wrong with the ST. WTF does it mean? Nearly every line is like a flimsy house of cards that will collapse if you even give it a moment's scrutiny.

 

Good idea for a thread though!

I personally don't feel offended by RJ's tweet because I never had any theories about Snoke. I was expecting to see what the creator comes up with. And he came up with nothing. There is a difference however between this and GL's shirt, because GL is being sarcastic to himself, while RJ clearly mocks the fans.

Anyway, staying on topic... I think the dialogue is SO much better in TFA than in TLJ. TFA has its moments, but for example the line "That's not how the Force works" is to me the funniest line in both films, and I genuinely thought that was a great moment in the film. I did not find it discouraging from how immersed I was into the film, nor did I feel that it is too "earthly". Those Kylo Ren - Rey interactions in TLJ though really take me out of the film.

 

You won't regret it my friend. There was a lot of fun to be had. I'll be watching it again on Netflix this month.

 

My favorite line in the ST is “The droid...stole a freighter?”

 

To be fair, all of the Snoke theories did indeed suck.

 

I don't think Poe's joke was appropriate, not necessarily because he was making a jab at the villain, but because of the nature of the jab. Characters in the Star Wars universe should not be mocking villains for wearing scary masks, because wearing scary masks isn't a ridiculous thing in the Star Wars universe. It's only ridiculous in our universe. What Poe's line does is encourage us to laugh at the Star Wars universe instead of with it. That's the problem.

Yeah I'll agree with you there.

 

The more casual, meta-style dialogue works for some characters - like Finn, whose basically a working joe, basic henchman type who somehow gets thrust into the story of the epic heroes and quests, it makes sense for him to lack the same gravitas as he doesn't really know what's going on. Even Rey to an extent as she's presented as an in-universe fangirl of Han and Luke etc. even if she doesn't know all that we do as she wasn't there for the 'real' events. But when you get characters like Luke and Han doing it to then it stretches it somewhat.

The same way that in the Whedon MCU when Iron Man is making snarky quips that works for the character... when Thor does it, less so.

 

Poe is boldly mocking something scary and serious. "Don't let these thugs scare you!"

 

Well, no, that isn't actually the spirit the joke is being made in. It just isn't. It's a Whedonesque joke poking fun at the inherent ridiculousness of the archetypal Star Wars villain (a guy wearing an angry-looking mask with a voice modulator). I believe most people took it this way, which is obviously the way it was intended.

 

He's supposed to be Leia to Vader in that scene but Leia's dialogue makes total sense in the context of the serials that Star Wars is taking place in while Poe's in TFA doesn't belong at all. For TLJ RJ did his own riff on that scene with Poe and Hux which while actually still terrible was actually not as errant. With some adjustments, especially on Hux's part, it could actually fit in to some degree while TFA's doesn't at all.

Exactly. No one within a Star Wars movie should be looking at Kylo Ren and thinking "What's with the mask?" That'd be like Poe looking at the non-human X-Wing pilot under his command and saying "So, you're al alien? How's that working out for you?"