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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Dialogue Workshop: Just How Do You Say That? moving on, Part Two

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Valairy Scot, Nov 29, 2007.

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  1. star_writer24

    star_writer24 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Thanks for the help.[:D] I was tempted to try something easy that I knew I could do correctly, but I wanted to improve stuff I had already written and was uncertain about. Can't wait for the next exercise!
     
  2. Katana_Geldar

    Katana_Geldar Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    Said
    told
    reminded
    explained
    murmured
    muttered
    hissed
    shrieked
    screamed
    shouted
    called
    faltered
    stammered
    lisped
    rasped
    snapped
    asked
    inquired
    answered
    replied
    spoke


    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you," said Anakin.

    Anakin closed his eyes and spoke. "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    "I never knew how much I loved you before," Anakin said, "how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    Sometimes though you can indicate a character has spoken without having an attribution at all. Like having someone stare or raise their eyebrows. Just as long as it's on the same line.
     
  3. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Brant_Flir: (Hi! Welcome![:D] )


    "The time of the Jedi is over..." the serene being whispered in utter disbelief.

    The serene being whispered in utter disbelief, "The time of the Jedi is over..."

    "The time of the Jedi," the serene being whispered in utter disbelief, "is over..."


    In each case, you did not "finalize" the punctuation after the ellipses. First sentence we need the comma (...,) and the two following should be terminated by a period after the ellipses (....).

    My favorites in descending order: the interrupted dialogue, the tag at the end and lastly the tag at the beginning.

    Why? That second line does not carry the gravitas - the finality - in the same manner as the others. The interrupted dialogue really gives it weight - an element of horror, all the more horrific because the speaker has been reduced to a whisper.

    The author is leading the reader in to the suspense, the horror. What? What is so bad that the character is reduced to a whisper of disbelief? It builds tension.

    This is so much in tone like the previously cited dialogue of Mace Windu from the ROTS novel, is it not?

    What would strengthen the "tag first" sentence? (Pure opinion here, folks.)

    Whispering in utter disbelief, the serene being whispered, "The time of the Jedi is over...."

    Now I admit I really don't like using "whispering" and "whispered" in the same sentence - I hate it in fact, but the ol' brain won't throw me a satisfactory alternative to "whispered."

    I much prefer "Whispering in..." vs the version below, which avoids the double use of the verb, "whisper." It builds suspense better than, "In utter disbelief...," but it does avoid the duplicate verb usage.

    In utter disbelief, the serene being whispered, "The time of the Jedi is over...."



    Star_writer24: If you have any other "problem children," you can do the second exercise again.[face_batting]

    Katana_Geldar: (Hi and welcome, too. [:D] )


    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you," said Anakin.

    Anakin closed his eyes and spoke. "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    "I never knew how much I loved you before," Anakin said, "how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."


    The interrupted dialogue for me just jumps off the page compared to the others.

    How much does Anakin care? Drum beat. THIS much.

    The first sentence is so dry and almost - pedantic - that I almost want to giggle (because Anakin is such a emotional character that I can't imagine him not "proclaiming" his love or something).

    If anything, that sounds like I would on a stage - wooden and stiff. Imagine "Captain Kirk" being parodied on Saturday Night Live or something, and the camera pans away to the Enterprise or his face in the mirror. ("I never - knew. How much I - cared and how - much it would hurt if I -lost - YOU.")

    (Sorry, Katana, for poking fun at this - my intent is good. Forgive me?)


    What is the one and only thing that might improve these sentences?

    Adverbs or a different verb. Spoke, said, those verbs are plain Jane vanilla (I love good vanilla, not slamming vanilla here). The passion Anakin is showing might be quiet, or it might be fiery-passionate, but somehow I don't think he "said" those words.

    He shouted them to the stars, he whispered, he breathed softly....
    He struggled to get the words past the catch in his throat....
    Despite the softness of the words, the very intensity betrayed the depths of his passion....

    Sometimes though you can indicate a character has spoken without having an attribution at all. Like having someone stare or raise their eyebrows. Just as long as it's on the same line.


    Indeed, yes. Take your sentence, see how many ways you can change it.

    [i
     
  4. Darth_Lex

    Darth_Lex Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2002
    See, that?s just the thing. To me, the alternate versions didn?t improve the dialogue at all ? in fact, they detracted from it. The more tags, adverbs, and descriptive beats that are added, the more the writing comes across as overwritten, self-important, unnecessary lyricism. (IMO, of course. Just an opinion.)

    Just consider the line itself, with nothing more:

    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    Such words have to be heartfelt, don?t they? They must be spoken intensely. The structure of the line alone, with its rambling run-on triple repetition of ?how much,? show us that Anakin is pouring his heart out here. So, given that, why is anything more descriptive even needed? (Perhaps if Anakin is actually shouting these words in a fit of rage on Mustafar, that would need to be signaled; but if he?s spilling his guts by a Naboo fireplace, the heartfelt manner of delivery is obvious.) Does adding something more, like outflung arms or near-tears, really improve the emotional impact? Or does it just make it overdramatic?

    On a related note, this kind of line probably doesn?t need a speaker attribution, right? In context, won?t it be perfectly obvious who?s speaking? I?m guessing this is Anakin and Padmé, alternating speaking in an intense conversation. If that?s the case, we don?t actually need any attribution to Anakin to know he?s the one speaking this line, then. (As opposed to, say, a Jedi Council scene where six or more characters might speak during the conversation.) Which makes all the more important the question of WHY use a tag (with or without adverb) or beat (without or without descriptors) with this line of dialogue in the first place? If the line doesn?t strictly need one, that?s all the more reason to be careful about the choice to include one.

    IMO, a line like this one is best standing alone, unadorned.

    I once read a story which included a scene which was an extended conversation between two people. The dialogue itself ? the spoken words ? was very good. It was sharp, smooth, intense yet at times witty; the author couldn?t have written that part any better. BUT? Every single time a character spoke, there was a tag or beat. And not just short ones, either ? many of the tags and beats were as long as the accompanying dialogue, if not longer. The two characters were constantly gesturing, moving around, changing their tone of voice, meeting and breaking gazes? Now admittedly that?s what many conversations in fact look like to an outside observer, but it?s not the author?s job to provide every single little detail ? because then the dialogue gets completely lost in the sea of tags and beats. Dialogue has to flow as quickly for the reader and it does for the characters speaking it; the conversation has to flow like it?s being heard, not like it?s being read.

    That?s why I think looking at lines of dialogue in isolation is a risky technique. For clarifying punctuation rules, perhaps, it might make sense to look at lines of dialogue in isolation, but otherwise context resolves so many problems where an author might be tempted to include a tag or beat, or even a speaker attribution at all. And you can?t see context without assessing the scene of dialogue as a whole. That?s the real trick to writing effective dialogue ? making the whole scene work, not just individual lines out of context. In fact, something that might read like a very powerful line on its own may turn out to be in
     
  5. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    You say potayto and I say potahto. LOL. The whole 'said' thing is a real can of worms. Some people love to use 'said' very, very little (I'm one of those) and some people consider 'said' to be a great way to do dialogue.

    I know that one of my favorite Star Wars authors, Matt Stover, wrote three novels with very different styles. In ROTS, he used 'said' to death, imo. After a while, I was muttering under my breath every time it showed up. Someone else might not even see the word....

    As for the example Katana_Geldar had and Lex talked about, it's a good one.

    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    There are soooo many ways to say that line - heartfelt, angry, dead-voiced, whispered, off-the-cuff - that, to me, it screams for a tag and not a 'said' tag either. I would agree that the context is very important. But even assuming Anakin is saying this in the fireplace scene, he could say it whispered or flatly or hesitantly or any number of ways.

    I think the more important thing is how the author wants the lines to be read. If they want it read fast, no tags. If they want it read slowly, then they put lots of descriptive words around it. Same with the reader. If they really hate lots of description and tags, they'll skip stories with it; if they like/love description and tags, then they won't.


    And, of course, lyricism is a whole other thread....
     
  6. Darth_Lex

    Darth_Lex Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2002
    There is definitely a question of stylistic preferences involved, no doubt. :)

    What?s important in a dialogue workshop, IMO, is to emphasize that the author needs to be self-aware of the potential effects on the reader of the various stylistic choices he or she makes. As you mentioned, some readers might have a reaction like ?enough ?saids? already!? ? while others might tire at what seems to be a contrived effort to use any dialogue verb except ?said.? :p The author certainly doesn?t have to make stylistic choices to please everyone (which isn?t possible, anyway), but it?s an important step in becoming a better writer to realize that you are in fact making choices about style.

    But that begs the question ? why is it important to the story that we know how the line is delivered? If it?s important that we know, then of course it?s important for the author to provide that information to the reader. But if the manner of delivery isn?t itself important for any storytelling or characterization reason, then describing it will actually detract from the narrative ? by interrupting the flow of the dialogue, and by distracting the reader from the aspects of the scene which are important.

    But that?s exactly my point about the danger of examining a single line of dialogue out of context. Every line of dialogue doesn?t need a tag (or beat). If previous lines of Anakin?s dialogue have established that he?s whispering, or speaking flatly, or angered, or whatever else, then the reader is going to already know how he?s delivering this line, too.

    Of course, there may be reasons to include a tag here. Maybe Anakin has been very animated, and suddenly gets very serious. Or maybe he?s been speaking normally, and suddenly drops to a whisper. Maybe he moves physically closer, or turns away. Those kinds of cues are important to the dynamic of the scene, so they?re worth showing the reader.

    Which gets right back to context. Whether this particular line of dialogue needs a tag, or doesn?t, is entirely a function of its overall place in the scene. Maybe this line is so important, its manner of delivery needs to be specifically portrayed. Or maybe this line is most emotionally powerful standing alone, unadorned, because the surrounding lines (before and after) show enough about the manner of delivery. It?s impossible to know that by evaluating the single line in a vacuum; only context can determine the best way to write any given line.

    Right, and that?s my point ? the value of learning about the nuances of using tags and beats (or anything else in writing, like POV) is in the author becoming self-aware of (a) their stylistic choices as choices and (b) how the readers will react differently to different choices. A conversation the authors wants to flow quickly won?t flow quickly to the reader if it?s bogged down
     
  7. Brant_Flir

    Brant_Flir Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2005
    Thanks Valairy. I will keep it in mind
     
  8. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Where to start? You all made so many good points that I'll probably do a horrible job of responding. I was formulating a response to Darth_Lex, then realized several paragraphs later he was saying what I wanted to say.


    That?s why I think looking at lines of dialogue in isolation is a risky technique. For clarifying punctuation rules, perhaps, it might make sense to look at lines of dialogue in isolation, but otherwise context resolves so many problems where an author might be tempted to include a tag or beat, or even a speaker attribution at all. And you can?t see context without assessing the scene of dialogue as a whole. That?s the real trick to writing effective dialogue ? making the whole scene work, not just individual lines out of context. In fact, something that might read like a very powerful line on its own may turn out to be ineffective, even awkward, in its full context.


    Bravo! =D= Exactly what I was going to post. Context, which we are not seeing here, changes everything.

    However, because we are discussing isolated pieces of dialogue, we should both treat it as it is - in isolation - and how in context our responses may well be different.


    See, that?s just the thing. To me, the alternate versions didn?t improve the dialogue at all ? in fact, they detracted from it. The more tags, adverbs, and descriptive beats that are added, the more the writing comes across as overwritten, self-important, unnecessary lyricism. (IMO, of course. Just an opinion.)

    Just consider the line itself, with nothing more:

    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."

    Such words have to be heartfelt, don?t they? They must be spoken intensely. The structure of the line alone, with its rambling run-on triple repetition of ?how much,? show us that Anakin is pouring his heart out here. So, given that, why is anything more descriptive even needed?


    Emphasizing I AM taking this out of context, the phrase is flat on its own, to my ears. I hear the beats: ta da, ta da, and ta da. Heck, I hear it even flatter, more like Anakin is droning on without any inflection in his voice. I just hear that sentence, in isolation, that way, which is way I want to laugh at it.

    How could we amend its beats without tags or descriptors? Elipses or dashes (I'm not saying improve, just change).

    "I never knew how much I loved you before - how much I cared and how much it would...hurt if I lost you."


    All this proves is there are so many ways to express dialogue, and one must make a conscious choice in one's presentation, and most importantly, within the context of the scene.

    As Dianethx posted:

    I think the more important thing is how the author wants the lines to be read. If they want it read fast, no tags. If they want it read slowly, then they put lots of descriptive words around it.


    That is getting into pacing, so I hope you all are gearing up to share your thoughts in depth when we discuss that. At that time, I think we will have to look at our snippets of dialogue within the context of the scene, whether it be long excerpts or a summary of the scene and where the characters are in that moment.

    Darth_Lex, you made so many good points I'm just going to advise everyone to reread your post and absorb it, rather than quoting it.

    Your second post alone could serve as a catalyst for the entire discussion on flow and purpose of dialogue.

    Brant_Flir: That's the whole purpose of this workshop - to make all of us think of what we want to accomplish. When you make a conscious choice and are happy with it - wonderful. Just consider the alternatives and how and why each alternative works - or does not.
     
  9. DarthIshtar

    DarthIshtar Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I think one of the most important things t consider in terms of tags and inter-dialogue narrative is the pacing of the scene. I saw a wonderful introspective on the fight scene at Bespin that was utterly ruined by the author completely disregarding the scene's timing and pacing. It is a difficult thing to keep it moving at the speed of conversation, but it is definitely something that has to be taken into account.

    Another thing that keeps me in drafts on dialogue is that the amount of tag or lack thereof is crucial in determining the intensity of the scene. It's something that I've had to work on a lot in my current monster, Lest Ye Be Judged because while I'd like to express clearly everything that the characters are getting out of the scene, I would need to keep it interesting for the readers who were getting through a truckload of legalese and complicated cross-examinations to read the story.
     
  10. Darth_Lex

    Darth_Lex Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2002
    But isn't your opinion of the flatness of the line contingent on the fact that you're aware it's Anakin's line? Aren't you "hearing" flatness and droning because of the way George asked Hayden to perform?

    If we changed the line from Anakin's to Han Solo's, would you hear it the same? If it was Luke speaking to Mara? Both of them are far more emotive than Anakin.

    Another way to ask the same question is - if we just looked at the line, by itself, with no speaker attribution at all (even male or female), would you "hear" it flat simply because it has no tag?

    Because to me, the word choice, the repetition, the cadence - those things make the line intensely passionate and emotional on its own terms. To me, I automatically "hear" a heartfelt manner of delivery simply because of the very words themselves. Now, a tag or beat - or established characterization - could change my default impression, of course. (And perhaps I also have a difference predisposition toward Anakin's dialogue; I "hear" him as very emotive and passionate when he's talking to Padmé...) But I do think the dialogue, standing alone, conveys some sense of its delivery.

    That's why I'm curious how much of your impression is dependent on knowing it's Anakin. Because when you attribute some context to the line already, then it might make more sense to feel the need to complete the context with a tag or beat.
     
  11. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    DarthIshtar posted:

    I think one of the most important things t consider in terms of tags and inter-dialogue narrative is the pacing of the scene. I saw a wonderful introspective on the fight scene at Bespin that was utterly ruined by the author completely disregarding the scene's timing and pacing. It is a difficult thing to keep it moving at the speed of conversation, but it is definitely something that has to be taken into account.[/i

    ]

    Most definitely.

    Darth_Lex:


    But isn't your opinion of the flatness of the line contingent on the fact that you're aware it's Anakin's line? Aren't you "hearing" flatness and droning because of the way George asked Hayden to perform?

    If we changed the line from Anakin's to Han Solo's, would you hear it the same? If it was Luke speaking to Mara? Both of them are far more emotive than Anakin.


    I can't answer that, sorry, but I went back to look at the source and saw that I never heard that line without knowing it was Anakin. Is is possible? [face_thinking] Yes, it is possible, I have to concede...but see my reply continued after quoting another part of your post:


    Another way to ask the same question is - if we just looked at the line, by itself, with no speaker attribution at all (even male or female), would you "hear" it flat simply because it has no tag?

    Because to me, the word choice, the repetition, the cadence - those things make the line intensely passionate and emotional on its own terms. To me, I automatically "hear" a heartfelt manner of delivery simply because of the very words themselves.


    I believe, ultimately, we each hear what we hear. I don't, I really don't, hear the cadence you do in that line. I can't make myself, even, trying to look at it as if I had never heard it before.

    It's not the tag or lack of, the descriptive phrase or lack of, it MIGHT be the out-of-context view - but it's just flat.

    Let me turn that back on you for a moment: if you didn't know it was Anakin speaking, would you hear that same intensity in that line?

    Do we even know - out of context - that he was speaking to Padme? Okay, realistically, who else would it be, but still? It might be a parody and he's speaking to Artoo? (Say it ain't so!)

    Are both our views colored by our perception of the known speaker, the context, the fact that is out of context, or some combination of the above?

    I've been reading and rereading that line, trying to find in its unadorned status what you apparently hear - and I can only find that by slowing it down.

    The repetition of "how much" would usually bring out a bravo from me. I use that stylistic repetition myself, usually in separate and sequential sentences. It builds on itself, into something greater than one part alone.

    One minor, minor thing that might tune my ear in more, possibly:

    "I never knew - knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."


    Alternatively, leave out the second "knew." I hear much more emotion and a greater cadence with that alone. Now I feel his emotion, regardless of whether he is whispering or shouting or declaiming his sentence. That dash gives it a beat my ear needs. Heck, one could even throw in an ellipses after cared for an additional beat.

    Ah, well, have we beat that sentence to death?

    I had planned to move into writing realistic dialogue - contractions, slang and fragments - before moving into the use of dialogue, but we appear to be heading towards the use of tags or not, etc.

    Should we briefly cover "realistic" dialogue and then move on, or continue this very informative and interesting give and take?

    The fact that all of you are taking time to formulate such well thought-out posts and sharing your feelings - as well as asking questions in such a thoughtful and non-critical manner - gives me a lot of pleasure and satisfaction.

    Thank you all for shar
     
  12. Darth_Lex

    Darth_Lex Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2002
    Absolutely. As I said before, for me the combination of word choice, repetition, and cadence gives the line a strong dose of emotional power without any other context. My ?default? perception of that line is someone deeply in love, pouring out his (or her) feelings to the other person. It?s heartfelt, passionate ? almost desperate. And I feel that in the dialogue without any more context.

    Probably. :p And I certainly don?t mean to belabor the point with Katana_Geldar?s example. Which gives me an idea?

    ? if you don?t mind me making a suggestion. :) The when-to-use-tags issue is a really great topic, and definitely an important one. A related topic is the ?show not tell? corollary to dialogue ? using the words of the dialogue themselves to convey tone, emotion, and so on, rather than relying on tags, beats, and adverbs. For example, writing dialogue so that the speaker ?sounds? angry even if you don?t know who?s speaking to whom, and have no beat or tag to cue your interpretation. That might be a fun exercise to include as part exploring when/how/why to use tags. :)

    Realistic dialogue is a good topic, too, though, ain?t it? ;) Particularly in SW, where we have characters as varied as princesses from cultured worlds and stuffy protocol droids to farmboys from backwater (backdesert?) planets and underworld scoundrels, and everything in between. Plenty to mine there, too. :cool:
     
  13. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Darth_Lex: you're both a mindreader and should be the one running this workshop! :D

    I thought I'd use show versus tell in the section on writing as people really speak.

    ? if you don?t mind me making a suggestion. Not at all.


    The when-to-use-tags issue is a really great topic, and definitely an important one. A related topic is the ?show not tell? corollary to dialogue ? using the words of the dialogue themselves to convey tone, emotion, and so on, rather than relying on tags, beats, and adverbs. For example, writing dialogue so that the speaker ?sounds? angry even if you don?t know who?s speaking to whom, and have no beat or tag to cue your interpretation. That might be a fun exercise to include as part exploring when/how/why to use tags.


    I think when that topic is introduced, I'll set forth some generalities and let you and DarthIshtar expand on that. That will give everyone a lot of perspective on that, as I know there are probably a number of lurkers on this thread - two that I'm aware of.

    I think the interactive nature of our posts really demonstrate how each author approaches and handles each issue - once we've set forth the ground "rules," we'll have a good ol' time, won't we?
     
  14. Katana_Geldar

    Katana_Geldar Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    Interesting how you picked up my Anakin-line as an example of attributions, as much as there are so many synonyms for the word "said", IMHO when the line has an emotive quality of it's own it can go over the top to put more into it. But then again, I belong to the poetic school of writing where "less is more".

    Here is what the line was like,


    While it is tempting to think of Anakin in the middle of a field with his arms outstretched spinning around and shouting this to Padme, I invisioned that Anakin was speaking in a very quiet and strained voice, trying to convince Padme of the depths of his feelings for her when she was trying to tell him they could not be together.

    Though I feel that I must say that I usually take the easy way out in terms of love-dialogue. I've watched far too many soap operas to be interested in melodrama and in that story, the part where Anakin and Padme kiss (the only time incidentally) happens completely without dialogue when they are both underwater.
     
  15. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I love the whole excerpt you just now posted, and in context, the emotion is very plain.

    I hope you don't mind our debate with your line as it stood out of context.

    Out of context:

    "I never knew how much I loved you before, how much I cared, and how much it would hurt if I lost you."


    versus that line in context:

    Attack of the Clones AU posted:

    Anakin ignored this, taking her hands in his and looking into her eyes. ?I didn?t realise how much I loved you before,? he said, his gaze steady and unwavering, ?how much you meant to me, and how much it would hurt if I lost you.? He looked at her with wounded eyes. ?I?ve gone this far, I can?t go back.?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------While it is tempting to think of Anakin in the middle of a field with his arms outstretched spinning around and shouting this to Padme, I invisioned that Anakin was speaking in a very quiet and strained voice, trying to convince Padme of the depths of his feelings for her when she was trying to tell him they could not be together.


    If anything, this proves that how dialogue works within the scene can best be analyzed by looking at the scene. However, it can be useful to look at dialogue out of context when one is discussing tags, lack of tags, descriptors and/or emotional context as shown within just that one line.

    Once we get beyond the "rules" or mechanics of dialogue, we will have to look at the whole picture, not just snippets of dialogue in isolation other than to show a particular point.
     
  16. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    This session will cover some ?do?s and don?ts? of writing dialogue as way of giving voice to your character and we will delve deeper into a discussion regarding the placement of tags, whether or not an author should use tags, and why one should minimize the use of tags. Descriptive phrases are fair game to discuss as well, although we?re focusing on tags (our broad definition of tags, regardless of the verb).

    Because we have several posters with much to contribute, I?m going to go light on details and treat this as more of an introduction to both subjects, with the request that feedback lead us into a deeper discussion. I do wish to go into a detailed analysis of using dialogue within the context of your scene at a later time.

    Discussion items:

    1. Tags: use as appropriate, and mix them up.
    2. Watch for unproductive dialogue: boring, repetitious, or meaningless.
    3. Watch for and avoid the ?John-Marsha? syndrome.
    4. Find a voice for each character, or just why does Yoda talk funny?

    Tags:

    As we discussed previously, a tag can precede the dialogue, follow the dialogue, or interrupt the dialogue.

    ?Experts? think the weakest usage is using the tag first; the strongest usage is in the middle. Whatever you do, however, mixing it up is the best way to proceed. Why? To make your story flow better, for one, and two, because it?s boring, and boring slows down your story.

    Repetition is usually boring. I know repeating the same instructions over and over to Darth Coworker who refuses to listen even the first time, does not work the second, fourth, or tenth time. In fact, I?ve lost him by the third time. I still try, though, making me the classic fool.


    Repetition is not necessarily the same as a deliberate pattern. We saw that in one of the earlier sentences we dissected before. ??this much?this much?and this much?? is highly effective, whether in dialogue or prose.

    Going back to elementary school days, I still to this day remember a teacher who politely informed me that ?culturally? we tend to group in divisions of three. I was doing four: we walked, we ran, we skipped and we jumped.?

    No, ?we sang, we danced and we laughed.?


    Bad example of repetitious tags:


    He said, ?I?m going first.?

    She said, ?No, I am.?

    He said, ?I am, too.


    Improved, but still bad:

    He said, ?I?m going first.?

    ?No,? she said. ?I am.?

    ?I am, too,? he said.


    Much improved:

    He said, ?I?m going first.?

    ?No,? she interrupted. ?I am.?

    ?I am, too,? he replied.


    First is repetitious, second at least mixes up the tags, and the third mixes up the tags and introduces a variance in the actual tag as well.

    Our lesson: avoid the same tag placement, with no variations.


    What else should you avoid? Boring /i] speech, for speech should advance the plot or reveal something of the character ? his thoughts, his motivations, and what he doesn?t even realize he is saying about himself or what he thinks about others.

    Can you come up with an example of someone saying something, oh, say in response to honest criticism, which reveals something unintentional?

    What about: ?I don?t care if I?m right or not, I just don?t want to be thought of as stupid.?


    Maybe that character cares more about how he/she appears to others ? self-image may be very central to that character. Find ? then use ? that trait.

    What else is bad: wasting dialogue on trivial, boring or banal matters.

    ?I?m going to the bathroom; I?ll pay my part of the bill as soon as I get back.?

    ?I?ll go, too, Jim, do you mind waiting for us??

    ?No, not at all.?


    Who cares! If for some twisted reason this actually is important to your plot, your characters can ?head off to the bathroom leaving Jim to watch for the bill.?

    Boring dialogue slows down your story. Dialogue can actually speed u
     
  17. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Here's exercise 1. I'll be back with others. I didn't have time to write something new but this is recent.

    This is the original.

    "The Bendu had a double-bladed saber and was well trained." The black-red tattoos stretched as Maul bared his teeth, sneering amusement. "She screamed long and hard when I gutted her." Then he waited a heartbeat before he said, "Master."

    So his apprentice thought the time for rebellion was close. Foolish pup. Trying not to smile at Maul's audacity, he said, "Tread carefully, boy. My temper grows short with your insolence. See that you remember your place or I may have to give you additional lessons in that regard."

    "Forgive me, my Lord." Even the apology was slow in coming.



    [color=darkred]#1 tags, no description
    "The Bendu had a double-bladed saber and was well trained." He continued, "She screamed long and hard when I gutted her." Then he said slowly, "Master."

    Sidious said, "Tread carefully, boy. My temper grows short with your insolence. See that you remember your place or I may have to give you additional lessons in that regard."

    "Forgive me, my Lord." [/color]
    [hr]
    [color=indigo]#2 Dialogue only

    "The Bendu had a double-bladed saber and was well trained. She screamed long and hard when I gutted her, Master."

    "Tread carefully, boy. My temper grows short with your insolence. See that you remember your place or I may have to give you additional lessons in that regard."

    "Forgive me, my Lord." [/color]
    [hr]
    [color=green]#3 No tags

    "The Bendu had a double-bladed saber and was well trained." The black-red tattoos stretched as Maul bared his teeth, sneering amusement. "She screamed long and hard when I gutted her." Then insolence. "Master."

    So his apprentice thought the time for rebellion was close. Foolish pup. He tried not to smile at Maul's audacity. "Tread carefully, boy. My temper grows short with your insolence. See that you remember your place or I may have to give you additional lessons in that regard."

    "Forgive me, my Lord." Even the apology was slow in coming. [/color]



    I still liked the original best because I thought it had a better flow. Of the other three, I liked the one with no tags best because it still had the description I love to read/write and set up the emotions behind the words best. My least favorite was dialogue only. Too flat.


    Now, I have written dialogue only stories but they are usually too flat and uninteresting to me. Trying to keep info in the dialogue as to who is talking can be [i]fun [/i] - not - especially when it's three or more people in the scene.
     
  18. Katana_Geldar

    Katana_Geldar Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    This is from a scene I have yet to write for a furture fic, so i'll put it in now and see how it goes. A little context, Sona Cantari (an OC of mine) is a young woman who is Anakin Skywalker's apprentice.


    Tags only
    "Master Kenobi, can't you do something?" Sona pleaded. "I want to go, can't you talk to him?"

    "I'm sorry Sona, but even if I could, I wouldn't," Obi-Wan replied. "And you're still injured, you're in no condition to fly."

    "But you were his Master," Sona argued. "Can't you make Master Anakin change his mind?"

    "And that's why I'm not going to say anything," Obi-Wan explained. "It's not my place to interfere between you and Anakin, and I think you know that too."

    Dialogue only.

    "Master Kenobi, can't you do something? I want to go, can't you talk to him?"

    "I'm sorry Sona, but even if I could, I wouldn't. And you're still injured, you're in no condition to fly."

    "But you were his Master. Can't you make Master Anakin change his mind?"

    "And that's why I'm not going to say anything.
    Description only

    "Master Kenobi, can't you do something?" Sona's eyes pleaded with him as much as her voice. "I want to go, can't you talk to him?"

    Obi-Wan shook his head. "I'm sorry Sona, but even if I could, I wouldn't. And you're still injured," he nodded to her arm, still in the sling, "you're in no condition to fly."

    Sona ignored this, pressing on. "But you were his Master. Can't you make Master Anakin change his mind?"

    How was he going to explain to Sona that Anakin's order had nothing to do with the fact she had almost lost her arm on Mantua and everything to do with Anakin's predeliction to protect everyone close to him? It was something that Obi-Wan had not managed to talk him out of yet. Of one thing he was sure of, if he went over Anakin's head and insisted that Sona go with Red Squadron to Alderaan, Anakin would never forgive him.

    "And that's why I'm not going to say anything." He gave Sona a long look that silenced any protests. "It's not my place to interfere between you and Anakin, and I think you know that too."

    ----

    The third one is probably more like my style, though I generally use a combination of all three. I think I prefer the thrid one better as it gives a lot more information, including Obi-Wan's on thoughts about Anakin, who isn't even there, but his voice is still heard.

    Something else that can reveal character with dialogue is characters who have some sort of speech impediement or pidgin, like Jar Jar Binks. I once wrote a character who had a lisp, though these characters are quite annoying to write dialogue for as once you start, you can't stop.

    Exercise 2

    Excitable Jar Jar Binks, Threepio (at times)
    Cool and collected Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mara Jade
    Stately Padme (at times, when she's acting the Queen or Senator) Count Dooku
    Purposeful Darth Maul, Palpatine
    Easy-going Dexter Jetster

    Palpatine/Sidious, this is interesting as it changes depending on who he is, Palps or Sid, and WHEN he is speaking. Palptine manipulates the way he talks as much as he manipulates everyone around him. To Amidala in TPM and at the start of AOTC he is almost benevolent sounding, like a grandfather figure that seems almost concerned. Like all autocrats, Palpatine becomes used to being in power and this is reflected in his way of speaking, like the way he speaks to the Delegation of 2000. According to Stover, the tone of his last line meant "Don't let the door crunch you on your way out". And then there's ROTJ, my personal favourite is when he says "I believe the shield generator will be quite operatational when your fleet arrives." Tha tone says so many different things.

    I'll be back with a few more characters
     
  19. The_Face

    The_Face Ex-Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 2003
    This is often said in discussions of writing better dialogue. But personally I say people?s names lots of the time when I?m talking to them. Not in the stilted way Jim and Susan are in the example text, but organically. Which, thinking about it and looking at the dialogue I?ve written where my characters address each other, generally has the name coming in the middle of the line. Here?s a quote from one of my fics that may not be the best example but it?s the first I found. :p

    Remy raised a finger. ?I?ve got an idea! Why don?t we ask Rydex Zan??

    ?Please, Remy, don?t mention that name in my presence.?

    ?What?samatter, Jav? Your relationship with the Zanster on the rocks? It?s creative differences, isn?t it??

    ?For the sake of my remaining sane molecule, shut up. That human is second only to you in staining my career,? Jav muttered.

    ?No,? his ex-partner argued, ?he ruined my reputation! Do you know that both my kids have read Galaxy Noir? I?ll never be taken seriously again!?

    Messuni raised an eyebrow. ?Were you ever, honey? Really??


    If I alter it to take out the names:

    Remy raised a finger. ?I?ve got an idea! Why don?t we ask Rydex Zan??

    ?Please don?t mention that name in my presence.?

    ?What?samatter? Your relationship with the Zanster on the rocks? It?s creative differences, isn?t it??

    ?For the sake of my remaining sane molecule, shut up. That human is second only to you in staining my career,? Jav muttered.

    ?No,? his ex-partner argued, ?he ruined my reputation! Do you know that both my kids have read Galaxy Noir? I?ll never be taken seriously again!?

    Messuni raised an eyebrow. ?Were you ever? Really??


    It?s a small difference, but I think the first sounds more like the teasing and friendly bickering of old friends it?s supposed to be. Also, without the affectionate ?honey?, Messuni?s line sounds more like verbal abuse of her poor husband. :p

    That?s all just my opinion though. Sorry to go on about one little part of the post, but that?s always irked me a teensy bit when I read it in books/articles/etc. on writing dialogue.
    I like this version myself. This, I think, is an example where a lack of words is going to speak volumes. I could make a comparison to the use of negative space in design, but I?ll keep the college at college for the moment. ;)

    Exercise #1

    Version 1: ?I,? she whispered, ?am so sorry for? for everything.?

    Version 2: ?I ? am so sorry for? for everything.?

    Version 3: ?I-? She raised her eyes for the first time, revealing the tears running down her face. He leaned in to hear the words choking in her throat. ?-am so sorry for?? She hesitated under his gaze, and glanced away. ??for everything.?

    I so totally overwrote the last one. The words themselves, which should be a powerful apology, are getting lost in a bunch of description. Sometimes I?ll even let a short line of dialogue stand completely as its own paragraph, tagless, descriptionless, just to give it greater impact. Like:


    ?But you knew that didn?t you, Professor Plum?? The detective looked up from the table and locked eyes with the other man.

    ?You killed Mr. Boddy.?


    I personally don?t care to know in that moment about the detective?s pipe or how he licks his lips when he delivers the line. I?ve got more important things to think about, like how I just found out Professor Plum is a killer! Oh noes! :eek:

    But getting back to the exercise, I think I?d go with a combination, because I like the emphasis of Version 2, a
     
  20. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Face - was it successful that dialogue? I know mine was somewhat successful although I must admit that if I had some free time, I'd turn it into a mostly dialogue story. [face_blush]


    Other exercises

    Exercise 2:

    Which Star War character(s) would you call:

    Excitable?
    Cool and collected?
    Stately?
    Purposeful?
    Easy-going?


    Excitable - JarJar, Yoda when he's being mischevious
    Cool, collected - Palpatine, Grevious, Mon Mothma
    Stately - Mon Mothma, Amidala
    Purposeful - Mace Windu
    Easy-going - Han, of course

    Qui-Gon - formal, uses small words when talking to the kid
    Luke - homespun, down-to-earth, quick talker,
    Leia - alpha female, clipped, forceful
    Anakin - emotional, informal, uses simpler words than Palpatine

    Exercise 3:

    Pick 3 or 4 from Gloria Kempton's list of speaker types. Try to define the type AND THEN wrote a line or two for that speaker.

    Okay, I admit it. I have no idea what the speaker types are - except dialect.

    Meesa goin' home. Meesa haten this'n dialect.

    Leave you will not. Too important you are. Make us laugh you do.
     
  21. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Great work!


    I still liked the original best because I thought it had a better flow. Of the other three, I liked the one with no tags best because it still had the description I love to read/write and set up the emotions behind the words best. My least favorite was dialogue only. Too flat.


    Dianethx: Flat! [face_shame_on_you] With that subject! With that language! You infuse those lines with a richness that allows the lines to stand alone.

    I think that out-of-context example works well several ways (but then I do know the story and the context). That said, I think I like the original best, too.

    Katana_Geldar: I actually like the tag example, probably because you mixed your tags. Did you notice that every line of dialogue was interrupted? I almost didn?t see it because of the skillful use of tags. The tags played off each other well, I thought.

    The third one is probably more like my style, though I generally use a combination of all three. I think I prefer the thrid one better as it gives a lot more information, including Obi-Wan's on thoughts about Anakin, who isn't even there, but his voice is still heard.


    The third does give more information, for sure, and if that is what we as authors want to do, it?s a great way to do that. I do it all the time, myself.:D

    Lisps and speech impediments can be tricky if you want to keep the reader involved. Here again, making it readable is key, and sometimes this is best done by indicating. I cite this example from Dialogue on this very point:

    ?L-l-let me see if R-R-R-R-Richard needs anything at the s-s-store.?


    Let?s hope that character doesn?t give long speeches, or even speak much. Indicate it, not just show it: ?L-let me s-see if Richard needs anything at the ? store,? he stuttered painfully over his ?r?s? and ?s?s.?

    Not a great example, too short and all, but you get the idea. Over a number of paragraphs you?d really see it.

    The_Face:I love [face_love] the way you wove all the names into your example. It works for you, the author, and it works for me as a reader.[face_dancing]

    I think the caution is in using names like this:

    ?Sam, let?s go to the store.? She stood there, holding his coat in one hand. Arguing that the big game started in an hour wasn?t going to get him out of going. None of his excuses ever did.

    ?Sure, Susan.?

    ?You think we should buy eggs, Sam?? He could close his eyes and recite from memory his wife?s posture: purse dangling from one hand, her grocery list in the other, worrying her lip as she second-guessed what was actually on the list.

    ?Susan, I don?t think so, we have two dozen in the fridge.?

    ?But when you think about it, Sam, we have both of our families coming for the holidays and we will go through a lot of eggs.?

    ?Okay, I guess you?re right, Susan.?


    With that couple, I?d expect to see each other?s names used a lot less. Where it is repetitive is when the dialogue ping pongs back and forth. Stripped to its essentials:

    ?Store, Susan??

    ?Went yesterday, Sam, remember??

    ?But we?re out of beer, Susan.?

    ?What happened to the six pack I just bought, Sam?

    ?Susan, I don?t know.?

    ?Ri..ght, Sam, the dog drank it.?

    ?No, Susan, the cat did.?


    Your version three may be a tad bit overwritten, granted, but it?s effective, more so if you cut back on the descriptive prose. I like version two better than version 1, in this out-of- context example.

    May I nitpick your version three punctuation (go ahead, blame Darth-oversight):

    Version 3:
    ?I-? She raised her eyes for the first time, revealing the tears running down her face. He leaned in to hear the words choking in her throat. ?-am so sorry for?? She hesitated under his gaze, and glanced away. ??for everything.?


    ?I-? should have a period to terminate that line; your next line starts
     
  22. correllian_ale

    correllian_ale Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Exercise 2:

    Which Star War character(s) would you call:

    Excitable? Threepio

    Cool and collected? Mace and Obi Wan

    Stately? Padme

    Purposeful? Leia

    Easy-going? Qui-Gon


    Han: self assured, leading listeners to believe he can be arrogant
    Yoda: methodical speaker, forces you to listen to understand his position
    Mara Jade: straight shooter, leaves no room for gray when expressing herself


    Exercise 3:

    Pick 3 or 4 from Gloria Kempton's list of speaker types. Try to define the type AND THEN wrote a line or two for that speaker.


    The Ace
    "I don't know what the problem is," he cocked his brow before continuing, "most women find what I do quite charming."


    The Shield
    "No no no...that's no what I meant at all."

    The Cannon
    "Don't ever, e-ver, find yourself comfortable enough to speak to me that way again."



    Quick slightly off topic point of interest. I noticed you mentioned earlier about using elipses and dashes to establish pacing. I used both in the above examples, but was wondering if you would be covering their uses at all? Maybe explain the difference in usage, and when to actually apply them.
     
  23. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Hey, 'ale, we crossed posts![face_batting]

    The Cannon


    "Don't ever, e-ver, find yourself comfortable enough to speak to me that way again."


    Love it! That dialogue line easily stands alone, needing no context, tags, or descriptors. What gives it that edge is the "e-ver."

    Post above yours defines Gloria Kempton's types. Still think your "cannon" is a cannon? Perhaps a "switchblade," rather?

    Quick slightly off topic point of interest. I noticed you mentioned earlier about using elipses and dashes to establish pacing. I used both in the above examples, but was wondering if you would be covering their uses at all? Maybe explain the difference in usage, and when to actually apply them.


    I'd be happy, to. You're looking for a more in-depth analysis than this preceding, right?

    When and why would one use dashes or ellipses to end (sometimes to begin) a dialogue line?

    If the speaker is trailing off, uncertain how to complete his own sentence, it would be indicated by ellipses (three periods), completed by a period for a total of four periods to indicate a completed sentence, or with a comma if a tag follows.

    A dash is far more abrupt, as if the speaker crashed to a halt or suddenly lost his voice without warning.


    I haven't really discussed pacing all that much yet - some of the other posters have done a fine job on that. We're moving towards the function of dialogue within a story once we understand the mechanics of writing dialogue and in establishing your character's voice.

    Perhaps about Thursday or Friday, depending on feedback? Participants: how's the pacing of this workshop for you? Let me know.
     
  24. correllian_ale

    correllian_ale Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2005
    I see what you're saying. With canon, I was thinking explosive personality, but after reading it with a second pair of eyes, I see it tends towards the "switchblade". :D



    Quick slightly off topic point of interest. I noticed you mentioned earlier about using elipses and dashes to establish pacing. I used both in the above examples, but was wondering if you would be covering their uses at all? Maybe explain the difference in usage, and when to actually apply them.


    I'd be happy, to. You're looking for a more in-depth analysis than this preceding, right?

    [face_dancing] What a relief. I use elipses (a lot) for a particular character. It's a tendancy of his peronality, so I was afriad I was using them incorrectly. But alas, I'm not.

    Thanks Valairy!
     
  25. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Val, I think the pacing is a little fast for me but I'm slow, slow, slow anyway plus RL is being a [TOS violation] at the moment, more so than usual. I am reading everyone else's comments, though.
     
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