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CT Did it matter at all?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Greedo was a new bounty hunter. He was still pretty green.
     
  2. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Good point. Ironically, the special edition extra scene at the docking bay with Jabba where Han tells him to "not send one of these twerps" if he wants to talk to him suddenly has more meaning now. ;). Greedo the idiot didn’t even know better, lol.
     
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  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Greedo was a bit of an idiot before the scene was changed. He let Han have one hand under the table, which is stupid. Greedo was overconfident and he was savoring the moment, like other bad guys in this series.
    Having him also be a really terrible shot only paints him as such an incompetent that one wonders why jabba would ever employ such a total looser.

    "People want Greedo to be a cool bounty hunter"? I have no idea who these people are but Greedo was an overconfident idiot that gloated when he should have keeping both of Han's hands visible in the original.
    What does him being a terrible shot add? A total fool? How is that an improvement?

    If Greedo is this bad at everything then Han could just walk away and let Greedo fire away and Greedo would never be able to hit him. Or even better, have Han say "You have your gun the wrong way around." and Greedo goes "Oh, thanks" turns the gun around and then shoots himself.
    And Han could smirk while "Wha-wha" plays.

    Anyway the issue was about how this changed Han. And making Han a noble guy that will never shoot first and will let other people have the first shot. That is a change to his character.
    And it makes no sense and is not consistent with how he acts in the rest of the film.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  4. s_heffley

    s_heffley Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Remember, Greedo was never meant to kill Han. Jabba just needed someone expendable if things got ugly. Greedo only ended up shooting because

    1. He did it out of some misguided sense of being an idiot

    or

    2. Maybe he wasn’t trying to actually hit Han at all, just ruffle his feathers a bit. So who knows, he may not be a “terrible shot” at all
    At the very least it’s consistent. So overconfident in himself that he didn’t realize he had no idea how to shoot a blaster. That’s if he was even trying to hit him, as said above.
    In the original SE version, sure. But in the newest version, the time between shots is so short that you can’t even make and argument that Han was planning to let Greedo get the first shot. Was the original version better? Sure. Should George just have left it alone? Probably. But what we have I’m completely fine with.
     
  5. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    I think the change doesn't even affect Han's character at all. He still shoots at roughly the same time as Greedo, and was going to no matter what. It's the same motivation as if he 'shot first'.

    No, I think the motivation for the change was less to do with making Han 'purer', something it fails to go for anyway. It was to make the shootout more of a western style gunfight, pistols at dawn kind of thing. Two combatants face to face, firing their guns and the best shot wins. That's a context that wasn't really there before in the original, and is why I like the change. It doesn't alter Han's arc, and adds a neat resonance with the western themes that this part of ANH is homaging.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  6. YT-2400

    YT-2400 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2008
    If this purpose of this scene change was to somehow make Han more 'nobler' then frankly, quite a few other scenes in ANH needed to be changed as well to maintain this vestige of an image. Notably, the scenes where Luke had to convince Han to help rescue Leia aboard the Death Star by offering him a huge sum of reward and on Yavin 4 where Han was actually departing with that reward.

    If Han was more 'noble' at this point in the saga then Luke could've appealed to his sense of justice and morality over the Empire executing a vital prisoner and Han would have backed Luke's play on assaulting the Death Star by the same virtue (Suspense being created by still having it unclear when Han would show up in the battle). But no, you have him being the money-grubbing scoundrel as you've portrayed him throughout the rest of ANH.

    If Lucas really wanted to change this perception, he shouldn't have altered this shooting scene. Instead he should have deleted the immediate following scene: Han coolly getting up, pays the bartender for the damage while telling him sorry for the mess and nonchalantly walks off like he's done this a million times before. Forget shooting some dope inexperienced bounty hunter first, THAT scene shows me how much of a bad-a$$ scoundrel Han Solo really is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  7. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    It's just needlessly mucking up a classic scene. It's kind of like updating a classic song you grew up with, then saying "you can't buy the old song anymore." I realize no one buys music anymore. Han flipping the guy the change was funny. The fact that he's more sorry for making a mess in a bar he likes more than shooting Greedo.:p
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  8. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    No it didn't. Han remained the same selfish bastard. First all, it looked to me that Han and Greedo had shot at the same time. Han was lucky. Greedo wasn't. And later in the film, Han had refused to help Luke save Leia from execution aboard the Death Star. Luke had to hint the idea of a reward from Leia in order to receive his help.

    I don't agree. I don't see how Han shooting first was supposed to make this scene better. I never understood why people made such a big deal about his scene. Was shooting first supposed to make Han look cool? Because that's what it seems to me. It seems to be all about the cool factor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The original scene was sort of a western but not the kind you are thinking of.
    Lucas is a fan of Sergio Leone's westerns and in "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly." Tuco is in a bath and a bounty hunter surprises him. The bounty hunter, thinking that he was Tuco caught, talks and gloats but then Tuco shoots him. And then says "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.

    The original scene was much like this, Greedo, thinking he has Han caught, talks away and Han gets his gun ready and then simply shoots Greedo when it is clear that Greedo isn't listening to reason and intends to kill Han.

    That Jabba might not have wanted Han dead can be inferred through this dialogue later in the film. But I think it is clear that Greedo's plan was to kill Han. The bit about "That's the idea" and "I've been looking forward to this." suggest that Greedo is going to kill Han.
    Why Greedo does this is up for discussion. Either he misunderstood what Jabba said about Han and thought that Han had a prize on his head and now Greedo could collect it.
    Or Greedo deliberately reinterpreted what Jabba said so he could kill Han and collect the bounty.

    No it isn't.
    If Greedo is this stupid that he needs an hour each morning to decide which shoe goes on which foot. That he is so incompetent that he could not find his own backside with two hands and an atlas. Then the question becomes why Jabba would ever have such a moron working for him.
    Jabba is not stupid and would not want a total klutz working for him.

    Greedo is overconfident and not that bright but having him have the IQ of a fork truck is not an improvement.

    Yes it did. Here is what Lucas had to say about the change;
    So Lucas is clear, he does not want Han to be a cold-blooded killer and thus must let other people shoot first. That Han shoots first other times in the film and thus this change makes no sense, you could direct that question towards Lucas.

    It isn't about being cool. It shows that Han is a bit ruthless, he will shoot a person if he feels his life is in danger. Even it seems underhanded (or under the table).
    This fits his character, he is a smuggler, he deals with other criminals so not playing fair would be expected.
    Han isn't about being noble, he is self-serving and takes what advantages he can get.

    The cool bit is Han tossing a coin to the bartender and saying "sorry about the mess."

    So Han shooting first or really be the only one that shoots, that makes the most amount of sense. Greedo has a stationary target less than three feet infront off him.
    So if Greedo fires then Han would die. Since we can't have that either have Greedo miss or not fire at all.
    The latter makes better sense as the former makes Greedo into a really terrible shot.

    Also people objected in 97 because then the scene looked bad and on top of that, you had the above mentioned Lucas argument that Han was supposed to be John Wayne. And people did not agree with that.

    Lucas should just have left the scene well enough alone as the original works the best.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    This still makes Greedo an idiot. If he just wanted to rough Han up a bit, he should’ve had company to serve as muscles, and to ensure Han’s hands were visible at all times. He does not do this. Instead, he confronts Han alone, sits down, allows Han to keep a hand under the table.

    Let’s examine the two scenarios.

    Han Shoots First
    Greedo’s failure to ensure Han’s hands were visible at all times and to have companions with him to ensure Han doesn’t do anything funny causes him to be shot.

    Greedo Shoots First
    Due to his failure to bring in muscles and to ensure that Han’s hands were visible at all times, he...shoots the wall inches from Han’s head hoping to scare him. Instead, Han shoots him.

    All we’re left is the big question: Why the hell did Jabba hire this moron? What, did he feel bad for him and, in a stroke of rare compassion, decide to take him in and show him the way of bounty hunting? If that’s the case, then Jabba absolutely should not have allowed Greedo to go confront Han all by himself, if at all. He should know how cunning, how dangerous Han is. Greedo is literally the last person I’d send if I were Jabba. Really, Jabba, if you wanted Greedo dead that much, just have Boba shoot him then and there before he even leaves the hangar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  11. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 9, 2020
    Jabba hired that moron because Jabba was also an idiot.

    I don't get how Jabba became a crime lord when he couldn't even defend himself against a woman that had nothing other than chains.
     
  12. lovethedarkside

    lovethedarkside Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    I think the change had a significant impact to Han's character development. When I watch ANH now, I most definitely don't think Han is a no-nonense kind of guy. I don't get that same "Whoa, is this guy good?!" feeling I got when I watched ANH in the theaters.

    How many of the people who are debating this have actually watched ANH with the original scene? And I don't mean in a two minute snippet. And more to the point, first saw ANH with the original scene? I think your opinion could be different. I know my impression of Han Solo was based solely on that scene as it was originally shot. It was a powerful scene.

    With the original scene, Han was a rogue. A cowboy. With the change, he's just some guy who got lucky and was almost a complete idiot for waiting so long. His cocky reaction after the shooting, and the cantina's response, no longer fit. Instead of "yeah, I just shot that guy, what's it to ya?" It's now, "man I got lucky there! And no, I didn't just wet myself but I'll pretend to be cocky as I head out the door."

    Han was my favorite character for 20 years because of that scene. It set the stage for Han and Lucas changed it.
     
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  13. s_heffley

    s_heffley Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2015
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    I only ever watch the Despecialized versions of the OT. I watched the BluRay version of ANH once and thought it looked and sounded terrible. You've got dated 70's effects, dated 90's effects, weird sound effects added in or changed. I don't know why Matt Wood thought that the Obi-Wan yell should have reverb in it, but he was objectively wrong. Artoo behind the rock is so dumb I'm almost certain Lucas did it just to upset people (same as the Vader NO! in ROTJ).

    Just let things age gracefully. If someone goes to watch a movie from the late seventies and it looks like it's from the late seventies then no one will be upset.
     
  15. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Said woman had noticed he was distracted by the chaos outside, wrapped the chain around his neck and began choking him. He had no reason to suspect she would do that.
     
  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    Money and power can afford someone great security. But the security was currently busy trying to fight off a Jedi Knight and his companions. Leia smashed the console which closed the blinds, and then strangled Jabba. None of this makes Jabba look like an idiot.

    Hiring a bounty hunter who misses from a few feet makes him look like an idiot, but that was a change that was made at the behest of Lucas after the fact.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  17. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Ruthless? Han's shooting of Greedo seemed more like an act of self preservation to me and nothing else. Even in the original version. Han's refusal to help Luke save Leia from execution struck me as a lot more ruthless. And we're supposed to worship Han as a character because he can be cold-blooded and ruthless?
     
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  18. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    No, we're supposed to appreciate his character arc that transformed him from cold-blooded and ruthless and self-centered into someone who cared about his friends and risked his life for them and their cause.
     
  19. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    I couldnt care less. The SE was the first version of the movie I've ever seen and I liked or never thought about it. Actually I found it weird when I bought myself the THX 95 edition right after watching the SE movie and the effect of Greedo shooting was missing. Of course I didnt knew anything back then. So yeah for me does not matter at all..
     
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  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    well then you might think the SE was weird if you saw the original version first. It's also different when it's the only version of the film you've known for 20 years. But to each their own.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  21. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 18, 2020
    nope.

    We are supposed to like that Han let go of that side of him, or at least tamed it.

    It's called an arc, a literary device that's been prevalent in storytelling from the very beginning.
     
  22. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    I don't think it matters very much. I get some of the complaints but I think it's a waste of time to make a big deal out of it.
     
  23. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Yep, hence the whole ‘Han swooping in at the literal last minute’ thing. Chewie probably guilted him to go back, so he did. Putting them over his own personal desires.
     
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  24. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 6, 2019
    I always loved this shot of Han just chilling without a single **** given as Greedo's charred, crispy body flops onto the table.
    I laughed so hard thinking about this in my head, and now I'm mad we didn't get this version.
     
  25. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    That would be a great argument if we were discussing Han's overall character arc. But we're merely discussing his shootout with Greedo in "ANH" and why so many are obsessed with that scene.
     
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