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CT Did it matter at all?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The why is because his life is threatened yes, the how is a bit ruthless. He gets his gun ready under the table and then blows Greedo away without flinching or hesitation.

    Han is not a hero at the start of the film, he is an anti-hero. Possibly doing the right thing but for selfish reasons.

    And who said anything about worship?
    People simply feel that Han waiting for Greedo to make good on his threat he holds his fire is stupid and does not fit Han's character for most of the film.

    We are, since Lucas stated reason for altering the scene is that Han is supposed to be John Wayne and such a noble good guy that he will never shoot first and instead let others have the first shot.
    This would alter Han's character arc as he starts very noble, then gets more ruthless as he does shoot first in other places and then becomes more noble and good again when he comes back to save Luke and the rebels.

    The original scene works better with Han's character as it shows that he is self-serving, a bit ruthless, which comes up later as well. But he changes during the film and becomes more selfless and wanting to help others even if he does not profit from it.

    And the person that seems the most obsessed about the scene is Lucas since he keeps tinkering with it, spending time and money on it.
    So you could ask him why this is so super important.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2020
  2. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    No, we’re just baffled that this doesn’t jive with what we know of him throughout the first half of the film. He’s a cold, uncaring, ruthless outlaw only out for Numero Uno. As he makes this extremely clear to Leia twice.

    Luke: “But they’re gonna kill her!”
    Han: “Better her than me!”
    Then after Luke bribes him with money, he says, “You’d better be right about this!”
    “I’m only in it for just one thing, me.”
    “I ain’t in it for your rebellion, sister.”
    Then just before the big fight when Luke’s trying to get him to help them, Han blows him off with, “...You’re gonna risk your life for them? I’ve better things to do.”

    We’re baffled by why Lucas was worried about this, but not Han’s later actions. The latter is him giving no **** about the Rebellion and making it loud and clear. However it’s Han...not allowing Greedo (a dangerous bounty hunter who is currently pointing a blaster at him) a chance to shoot first is what bothers Lucas so much?

    To recap:

    Han: “I don’t care about the Rebellion, the Empire, the Jedi, the Princess or anything. Y’all can just die for all I care — I want my money.”
    Lucas: “I see nothing wrong with this. This fits his character perfectly.”

    Han: “Hey, this dangerous cronie is pointing a blaster at me and gloating about wanting to kill me. I’d better secretly prep my blaster and shoot him before he gets a chance...”
    Lucas: “Noooo, that makes him so cruel! :(
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  3. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't care about whether Han or Greedo shot first. I found Han's refusal to help Luke save Leia more interesting. I don't need some faux Western scene with Han being portrayed as some "cool anti-hero" character - something he had always pretended to be, but never was - for me to regard him as "ambiguous" or "complicated". It's not that it's a shallow scene, but I find the fans' reaction to that scene rather overrated. And unnecessary. Was Han ambiguous? Yes. So were Luke, Leia, and many other Star Wars characters. But Han was never "cool" to me. People keep claiming that their reaction to Lucas' change of the cantina shooting scene was more than about Han being "cool". I'm sorry, but I find that really hard to believe even more than ever. Han has always struck me as a bit of a man child. And I see that was one trait his son had inherited.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  4. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think the fact that so many people think Han is cool despite the fact that he is kind of written as a jerk in ANH is due to Harrison's likability and charm.
     
  5. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    What about that scene after 2012-13? Did it matter?
    https://uproxx.com/movies/solo-lawrence-kasdan-jonathan-kasdan-solo/
    Kasdan wrote TFA too. Han the cold-blooded killer...it's not a story your father would tell you. But maybe Ben was told or shown. John Wayne was not real. That was a lie, like Luke.

    Han the cold-blooded killer and Vader were not a lie.

    In TLJ, Snoke died like Greedo in TLJ, the upper half of his body stumbling over...after being distracted by Solo's hand while the other hand was minding its own bussines 'under the table':

    This is Kylo as Snoke's proxy (as Greedo):
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    "Fans reactions were overrated and unnecessary"?
    How is a reaction overrated? What is the grading system for fan reactions?

    Han was an anti-hero in ANH, that is very clear.
    But ambiguous?
    He is a mercenary, quite brave but he is self-centered and a bit ruthless. Not a very deep or complex character in my opinion.
    He does change over the course of the film and becomes less selfish and does help others even without pay.
    So he has an arc.

    And the reason why fans disliked this change was a) when it first appeared, it looked bad. b) Lucas argument for the change made no sense and weakened Han's arc. c) Having Han wait for Greedo to fire first makes him a moron.

    Had Lucas left well enough alone, this discussion would never have happened.
    But he didn't so here we are.

    And playing the rouge with a heart of gold is not as easy as it looks and Harrison deservedly got praise for his performance and it is no surprise he got noticed by Hollywood.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  7. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    This isn't Lucas' fault. At the time, he could damn well change what he wanted to change. This reaction to such a minor change that didn't revise Han's character in the first place . . . I don't even understand it. What is the point of this? What is the point in getting overwrought over that shooting scene? Forget it. This whole matter over that scene is just a joke to me. It's shallow nonsense. I'm moving on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Bye, space Felicia.
     
  9. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I was going to stick by my words, but when I saw this, I changed my mind. I'm not going to allow this kind of puerile behavior drive me away.
     
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  10. Bring_My_Shuttle

    Bring_My_Shuttle Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Good question, have you asked GL?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Of those here, you are the one who seems the most upset. And upset that some of us are expressing an opinion about a change in a film.
    If you don't care, why keep coming here to say that you don't care?

    As for Lucas, he choose to alter a 20 year old film, which he had the freedom to do. But the audience also has the freedom to say what they feel about said change
    Lucas can change anything he likes but he has to accept the consequences of his actions, like that some might not like it.
    And had he left this scene alone, this discussion would not be happening.
    And Lucas obviously cared about this scene as he changed it more than once, and he spent time and money on it.

    I am not taking part in this debate in the hope that it will change anything. But not many of the discussion going on here will have a real effect on the world, ending all wars, providing a cure for cancer.
    It is just people discussing and talking about what they like or dislike.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  12. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Making changes to a film doesn't bother me. Suppressing the original is what bothers me. I have a nice little boxset of all the versions of BLADE RUNNER in my movie collection. If I also had a boxset of all the differing version of STAR WARS, this would be a non-issue.

    I'm just glad for the de-specialized editions. The one for ROTJ is a bit undercooked, but ANH and TESB look phenomenal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  13. R.D.

    R.D. Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2015
    While I felt the reactions to the change were a bit overdone...the changes going back and forth over the editions were a bit much too. Have 'em shoot at the same time, sure, whatever, but yeesh.
     
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  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    This is why the "George's vision" defense falls on deaf ears with me. It's not a "vision", it's just his whim and I don't have to respect whims.
     
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  15. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Maybe Coppola can put out a SE of the Godfather where Michael doesn't shoot first in the Italian restaurant. :p
     
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  16. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Well, that was totally uncalled for. :/

    To be sure, I do see your point. At the end of the day, it...really doesn’t matter in the long run. xD Greedo is some mook that was written for the expressed purpose to die, and die he did.

    I think this is just a case of agree to disagree, and getting all bent out of shape over something that lasts for maybe three seconds tops is kind of strange xD
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Of course, the flip side of that is if it doesn't matter than why change it at all. :p
     
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  18. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2020
    And the more important matter is why complain about it at all ?
     
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  19. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    For me it's not a big deal but it did change from a scene I liked to a scene where I kind of just scratch my head.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  20. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2012
    not a big deal and Han still apologises about the mess
     
  21. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Mandalorian / Manager of WNU/CT/Saga star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Han's reaction to the shooting is telling. Even if you buy the argument that Han shot second, Han's extreme callousness toward what he just did should tell you more about the man then whether he shot first or second. Actually, I think Lucas screwed the pooch by not somehow editing Han's reaction to the shooting).
     
  22. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Plus Greedo looks like a giant rubber housefly, so the scene was played with a bit of humor in 77.
     
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  23. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    How amazing.:rolleyes: The entire Special Editions films depended on whether Han or Greedo had shot first in "A New Hope".
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I find it fascinating that some people defend a change with the logic "It changes nothing."

    If nothing has been changed then what was the point of doing the change?
    If the story, plot, characters or setting has not been altered in any way, then the change is pointless and Lucas just wasted time and money on nothing.

    If the change DOES alter something then there is the possibility that some could like it less.
    And why should they not be allowed to express that?

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  25. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Why are we we even discussing this?
     
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