main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Did Luke's "new canon" Jedi allow healthy attachments, marriage, family, children, etc.?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Dec 26, 2021.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Question 1: Did Luke's "new canon" Jedi allow healthy attachments, marriage, family, children, etc.?

    I'm not sure if we've gotten a definitive answer on this point yet, have we?

    And regardless of the answer to Question 1...

    Question 2: should Luke's "new canon" Jedi have allowed healthy attachments, marriage, family, children, etc.?
     
  2. QuinlanSolo

    QuinlanSolo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2019
    1) According to Jason Fry's TLJ novelization, yes.

    2) Depends on the definitions of "healthy" and "attachment."
     
  3. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Anakin's attachments to Shmi and Padme = unhealthy, because they became more possessive than compassionate, reacted by causing suffering and death for others.

    Luke's attachment to his father, and Anakin's newfound attachment to Luke, both in ROTJ = healthy, about compassion, didn't cause either to cause suffering and death for others.
     
    clone commander bossk likes this.
  4. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2021
    The people that he taught in canon that we know of so far weren't really old enough to face many of those issues. Most of them were still teens and not really old enough yet to have a desire to get married. As far as them having physical relations with each other it was possible but there really wasn't any evidence for it in the Kylo Ren comic (which is the only work we have gotten so far that details his academy in anyway). The comic does depict the students though as having solid friendships with each other.

    Now though since we know that Luke spent a lot of time after RotJ studying the history of the Jedi he probably would have learned a lot about the Jedi of the High Republic era and in that era though Jedi getting married wasn't encouraged (or giving into any raging hormones they may have had) it still wasn't necessarily forbidden and there are many accounts of Jedi doing things like that. Avar Kriss and Elzar Mann had a physical relationship while they were Padawans but then decided to start acting more responsibly once they became knights. There have been hints that Stellan Gios has done some of the same stuff (possibly with Indeera Stokes). And the YA and young reader books do bring up the topic of sex. Vernestra Rwoh does mention that dealing with these feelings is something that a lot of young Jedi struggle with.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
  5. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Were they still in contact with their parents/families? Ben was, so I would assume the others were as well.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
  6. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2021
    We don't really know. And as far as Ben it seems that the only real knowledge Han and Leia had about his whereabouts was that he was with Luke but outside of that they were in the dark. By the time of the ST they found out what happened to him but prior to that it didn't really seem they knew what was going on with his training. I'd imagine after he fell Luke told them and that was how they found out.
     
  7. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    You know, I'm kinda skeptical of the idea that the Old Republic Jedi avoided emotional attachments. In TCW we see plenty of the Jedi Masters like Plo Koon and Kit Fisto forming normal friendships with their padawans, with the clones, and others. So they're not emotionless robots at all.

    ...or maybe it's just a case of George Lucas saying that Jedi don't form attachments, and then he doesn't actually try to depict that on-screen.
     
  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well if High Republic is anything to go on we know that the whatever happened to get the Jedi to how they are in the prequel didn't just happen overnight it took time for them to get to where they are.

    Their order is THOUSANDS of years of years old and they probably had many iteration and rules.

    So basically i agree with you in this sense.
     
    Alpha-Red likes this.
  9. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2021
    Being nice doesn't mean they are attached. There is nothing wrong with being friendly. You don't have to be 100% detached and cold like Mace Windu - that isn't required for a Jedi.

    Attachment in the context of Star Wars means something that can compromise you and bring harm to the collective whole in favor of personal. It means prioritizing one person before the greater good and everyone else, not doing your duty. It means selfishness and greed, possessiveness. Jedi are especially careful about that, because the Jedi wield power, they serve the Galaxy, and with that comes responsibility. They can't jeopardize everyone else. That means they have to be able to let go if need be. So no matter how nice and friendly they are, they will be ready to sacrifice if that means benefitting the greater good.

    That's why (at least according to Lucas) Luke was never married. Jedi don't marry. Marrying means devoting yourself to another person before others, prioritizing personal before collective. The Jedi are devoted only to serving others, serving the greater good and the Galaxy.

    When people talk about Jedi marrying and allowing romantic relationships, it's just a wish fulfilment of wanting to wield great power (the Force) and at the same time living a normal life without any repercussions the Jedi bestow upon themselves. It's basically bending the rules, because you think you are too smart for the setting. In short, to have a cake and eat it too. But that doesn't work. Dark Side is very real in Star Wars, temptations are real, and combine that with basic human nature and everything that comes out of it - and you get another genocidal Sith Lord, who will terrorize the Galaxy until the Force balances itself out.
     
  10. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    You can be married, or in other relationships whether romance or friendship, and have kids, and still be in contact with parents... and still do all that good stuff if necessary. We know because they exist in the real world. We don't ban soldiers from marrying. In most religions, marriage isn't banned as some obstacle to following God.

    I don't know who told you that getting married was about putting your spouse above ethics and morality, but they're wrong.

    Even in Star Wars, Anakin being in a forbidden marriage didn't make him turn to the dark side. We can easily imagine a logical situation where Anakin reject Palpatine in ROTS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
  11. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Well, a platonic friendship could very easily carry this same danger as a romantic relationship would, right?
     
  12. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2021
    I am sorry, but in real life there is no such thing as the Force, that has an actual impact on everyone and grants certain people magical powers and makes them power hungry maniacs if they give into it, who then terrorize the galaxy until they are put down like rabid dogs.

    If you are given a choice to save your wife/child or some people you don't even know, as a Jedi, you are supposed to make a choice that benefits the greater good and others. Will you be able to do it? Or you may give into temptation, possessiveness and become Darth Vader. Doom the entire Galaxy to save Padmé. For yourself. Oh, but you think you are smarter than that, don't you? Well no, you aren't. You aren't perfect, for you are human. And that is a risk. Attachments make you vulnerable to your fears and anger, and therefore to the dark side, making you a threat to everyone. The Jedi can't allow such risks. You are either a Jedi and follow the rules, or you don't become a Jedi and live a normal life without having to think of such responsibilities.
    Yeah, sure. The core of the issue is being able to let go. The Jedi have to be able to let go, attached people can't do that. By forbidding too close relationships, the Jedi try to shield themselves from the risk of attachment. Some Jedi can become extremely cold and detached because of that, emotionless robots as you said.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
  13. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Sentients in Star Wars are the same as humans in real life on Earth. The Force doesn't make people more likely to become "power hungry maniacs if they give into it, who then terrorize until they are put down like rabid dogs" (your words).

    Plenty of people in real life are all the time given choices to decide between something that better promotes them and their loved ones, or all of society in a fair manner. That's why there are things called laws, and crime, and legal but unethical behavior like nepotism and favoritism. It's all around in real life. And people may make the poorer choice in real life, but just as many if not more people make the more ethical choices too. Just recently, think of all the doctors and nurses and pharmacists who didn't give the COVID vaccine to themselves or their loved ones first, instead waiting for the proper rollout and all the elderly and most sick to get it first.

    Your argument is immature, and detached from real life comparisons. As I said, even in Star Wars, we see how easily Anakin could have just stayed in the Jedi Temple, and Mace take-out Palpatine. He had a choice. To say he was doomed to fall, that Anakin had no choice, fundamentally misunderstands the entire saga.

    You can have healthy, non-possessive attachments. ROTJ proved that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
    iFrankenstein, Riv_Shiel and Sarge like this.
  14. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2021

    Sorry to break it to you, but the Dark Side of the Force is a very real entity in Star Wars, and has a very real impact on people who use it and their personalities. There is a reason the Jedi have rules. Star Wars is not a real life btw, your analogies are poor and have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. There is more to Star Wars than simple moral choices, when said choices then have immensely dramatic consequences due to the narrative of the setting (the Force).
    I never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
    Seems it is you who "fundamentally misunderstands the entire saga." Go read up George Lucas' interviews and watch the movies again with audio commentary to understand them better. Go read up on Buddhism, the difference between attachment and love, compassion and passion. There is no such thing as "healthy attachment." It is an oxymoron. This is just what Lucas believes is the core of the Jedi philosophy and the Force. You can't roleplay your powerful Jedi fantasy and have a hot redhead wife, the EU got it fundamentally wrong. Jedi Order, as per George Lucas, was never wrong about attachments and their philosophy, and Luke didn't "fix" anything. Anything else is fanfiction and misconception.
     
    Xammer likes this.
  15. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I’ve been on these forums almost 20 years, since Episode 2. I’ve studied world religions. I know what I’m talking about. Lucas changes his mind on many things, frequently. But he’s never tried to undo Vader’s redemption, and the bond between Vader and Luke in ROTJ. He made it the justification for the prequel trilogy being Anakin’s story. The dark side doesn’t brainwash. And Anakin simply being married to Padmé isn’t what caused his fall. And I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m addressing the implications of what you’re saying.
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The way ROTJ ends (along with various statements "Pass on what you have learned" "In time you'll learn to use it as I have", etc) strongly implies Leia is going to marry Han, and that Luke is going to train Leia to be a Jedi.

    The whole "marriage and Jedi are incompatible" claim clashes with the happy feel of the RoTJ ending in a big way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  17. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2021
    I think the idea for Jedi not being allowed to be in relationships is because in real life priests aren't allowed to be in relationships of their own and in the Star Wars universe the force in many ways viewed as a 'God' and the Jedi and the Sith are different 'sects' that worship it.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Many sects have repealed these kind of limitations, and some never had them in the first place.

    While I can believe Lucas put the restrictions in specifically to reflect the existence of "cloistered orders" I also think that he was conscious from the very beginning that such restrictions aren't an inherently good thing.
     
  19. AvarandElzarsittininatree

    AvarandElzarsittininatree Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2021
    In Star Wars people don't have a choice on rather or not they are born with the force and taken by the Order. In real life people do have a choice on rather they want to join the priesthood and they know that that is a part of that life. They aren't being forced to live that life if they don't want to. If Lucas was intending it to be considered a bad thing it clearly wasn't something he knew much about or researched very well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "Being taken by the Order" is supposed to be the parent's choice.

    I believe Lucas was intending it to be considered an unnecessary thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
  21. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    If I had to draw a close comparison between my own religious tradition, Shi'i Islam, and the Jedi it would be the Prophet Muhammad and his Household. As such, I'll cite a specific story of his son-in-law Ali and daughter Fatima and their children, Hasan and Husayn.

    At the time, they themselves were living a fairly meager existence. It was during Ramadan, they were fasting, and just prior to breaking their fast a poor man came to their door asking for food. They gave him the dates and bread they intended to break their fasts with, and broke their fasts with only water.

    I cite this story as an example of how people can be married, have children and do self-sacrifice for the good of others.

    Being a Jedi doesn't have to necessitate celibacy. We know it doesn't necessitate chastity. Which seems rather contradictory imo. Jedi can have lustful flings but not loving marriages. Lust leads to far more harm and abuse than love.

    At any rate, I'm totally cool with it being just part of the rules of the Star Wars universe that Jedi don't marry. That doesn't mean they absolutely have to be cut off from knowing their birth parents or taken from their families at all to be trained in isolation from familial ties. In fact, we see how this changes within the Saga itself. Anakin was taken from his mother, and kept out of contact with her for 10 years to be raised in the Jedi Temple. Luke and Leia could have been taken into isolation to be raised and trained exclusively by Yoda and Obi-Wan from birth. They were put in loving households to be raised by parents and trained later, when the Force willed it.

    I would like to think that Luke followed the pattern his masters did with him, rather than the earlier Jedi dogma.

    Likewise, Luke didn't start training Leia until it was clear that she was married and had a child.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2021
    Dream-Thinker, Xammer, Ghost and 4 others like this.
  22. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Did Obi Wan Kenobi know Owen and Beru were about to die by Empire's Hand in ANH when he was with Luke? I am not saying he is a bastard who speculated on their death to free him of obligations so he would leave with him. But did he protect Luke rather than them, knowing what fate might befell them? Maybe even hoping they would be spared but doubting it?

    Kenobi could have protected the Lars and Luke both, or saved both maybe, given his being a Jedi. Even if they are stubborn and would not want to leave their compromised location and homestead. But Luke might not have left with him, had they chosen to stay behind or stubbornly await the Empire.

    So did Kenobi calculate that and accept their choice, or rather did he give them one at all given he didn't even try or ask? Knowing past problems with Owen and him! Did he thus prefer Luke's trauma over loosing them to the more difficult having to separate him from them when they would be alive?

    Without the droids and Vader speeding up Luke's extraction and beginning his training on the Falcon, when would Kenobi have come to train him and talk to him? Did he wait for such an event or sign of the Force to start? Could Luke have lived a happy life as a farmer for decades had this event not sped things up? Same for Leia and her involvement in the Rebellion. Yoda never came looking for any of them aside through the Force from afar maybe. Ahsoka / Ferus Olin (canon/Legends) watched over Leia from afar. Would they have taken Leia? They never approached her when she joined the Rebels or Bail took her under his wing. Because the Jedi wanted Luke more than her? Or because other reasons?

    All these formative events talk a lot about attachement and the loss of attachement.

    Leia was attached to her adoptive parents still despite being in danger and living a life close to the Emperor in the Senate and Vader even on the spacelanes. Jedi did not move in. Luke though, lived far from either and the Jedi, Kenobi, only moved in after or when he was about to loose his attachement to his aunt and uncle.

    Does that have to do with Jedi patiently waiting for someone to consciously, subconsciously or through life circumstances choosing to give up attachements and choose a new path they then come in to present? Earlier they took Forcesensitive children out of their homes and even older apprentices out of their lifes with promises of Jedi duty and cliché tales of Jedi grandeur they did not spread but indirectly benefited from regarding recruitment. Now, Jedi wait till the apple falls from the tree instead of plucking it off kinda as if it is a sign of the Force it is ready.

    If that concept is what the Jedi follow now, then attachements are no longer forbidden, even respected as helpful and formative. Be it before one becomes a Jedi, be it after one leaves the Jedi Path, or be it interim when one needs a sabbatical or time for oneself before returning to the Jedi Path. Thus attachements even like marriage, children raising, political duties and rulership, may all be allowed within the Jedi community, and respectfully tolerated, yet the deeper Jedi Path awaits before and after these formative times of attachement passed. I think the Jedi learned not every Jedi needs to be a full time Jedi. Some can be part time, some can fulfill other roles. Everyone serves in his own capacity and the Force finds a place for everyone. Where before Dogma limited Jedi to full time devoted Jedi due to the risks of attachements pitfalls, the Jedi learned that even fulltime Jedi are attached, to the code, to the order, to the lightsaber, to their own hopes and ideals and that is no different than being attached to others. So they found ways how to deal with this and widen the concept and approach to make it work and offer help when needed and some stray. As High Republic Jedi strayed some and found help with their Jedi peers instead of reprimands, even took timeouts.
     
  23. iFrankenstein

    iFrankenstein Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2020
    This whole idea (along with Luke traveling around the galaxy recruiting infants to train as Jedi) from the supposed “Darth Maul Returns” sequel treatments is so dumb and awful it almost makes me glad Disney threw Lucas’s ideas in the trash, even if what they came up with wasn’t much better. This is the same kind of terrible logic Rian Johnson used in The Last Jedi when he had Luke claim that there should be no more Jedi because the prequel Jedi were unable to stop Palpatine’s rise to power. The whole point of the prequels was that the Jedi had grown flawed and complacent and detached from their own humanity, to the extent that they couldn’t see the danger in their own midst and in front of their eyes. Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader; Luke won by rejecting them and choosing love over the Jedi doctrine of non-attachment. In defying his teachers he became greater than them, and that’s the moment when he became a Jedi. It would have made no sense to assume that Luke’s Jedi Order would be constructed with the same dogma as the prequel Jedi instead of incorporating Luke’s insights that toppled the Empire.
     
  24. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    The whole point if The Last Jedi was that Luke was in the wrong....

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    A couple of points.
    1. Even though the Force doesn't exist, "nonattachment" is a real religious concept shared by lots of religions and practiced by plenty of normal clerics and laypeople.
    2. It's true that the OT Jedi did have attachments, but that's not hypocrisy it's just the regular tension between being human and a religion - it's always a striving, an attempt to do your best to live up to what you know is the ideal but also that you'll fall short, try again, fall short, and try again. And like in a real religion, even the wisest leaders have different feelings about this stuff - Mace Windu is less tolerant of people flouting the rules, whereas Yoda is pretty understanding of human (sentient?) weaknesses.
    3. "Nonattachment" doesn't mean you move through life dispassionately and without emotion, it means that you avoid a "clinging" that ties you to worldly things in a way that makes their impermanence intolerable to you. Part of this, especially for monks and warriors and clerics, means doing your best to not put yourself in situations that create conflict between your duty and your relationships - the Republic era prohibition against marriage doesn't exist because Jedi hate love, but because someone might, say, not want to leave on a mission that puts them in danger so they can see their wife and kids again, or might want to pursue an opportunity that gets them a little more money to support their family with or sets up their kids in a good life situation, or...I dunno, join the Sith and kill younglings in the hopes they can keep their wife from dying. Earlier Jedi may have been more lax and not have had a stricture here, and it's possible Luke's didn't, but it makes sense that religious ideas would be more "structured" when the organization is larger, more structural, more institutionalized.
    Luke is actually pretty good about attachment in most spheres - he's able to separate himself, and he's not interested in his father's lightsaber for sentimental reasons. He is, unfortunately, unhealthily attached to the idea that he's a hero and needs to be perfect - when he lets go of his obsession with his initial failure and the way it caused his image of himself to crumble, he becomes a greater hero than before.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021