PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

Mace outmaneuvered and disarmed Palpatine,
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isn't that the whole debate though?

 

But the question is is that was his disarming of Palpatine the action that counts as winning a duel? Obi-Wan was disarmed in TPM yet still was able to achieve victory over Maul.

 

His great foresight didn't predict the Ewok rebellion or Vader turning on him, things that happened in the same film.

Who do you think is attemping to refute those points, and why do you think those points are relevant to the issue at hand?

And the "Palpatine threw the fight" crowd never fails to mention this, but it's a strawman. It is not in dispute that Palpatine was "faking" when it comes to the issue of the lightning. The question is what happened in the lightsaber battle. One does not get you the other, they're not a package deal.

You seem to have missed the point. First of all, I don't know where you're getting this "true prophecy" and "infallible" stuff, but those phrases were never used in the films. Force prophecy in general is not absolute, as we have seen in the EU. Always in motion is the future, as we have seen in a film that Lucas had something to do with. But the main point is:

Mace doesn't have Lucas whispering in his ear telling him the prophecy is right. The Jedi suspect the prophecy may have been misread. The Jedi doubt that Anakin will do what he is prophesied to do. And if he fails? They would be likely to think "he wasn't the Chosen One after all" ( the DVD chapter title is NOT THE CHOSEN ONE? ) as opposed to "there will never be a Chosen One".

I'm not disregarding anything Lucas said on this issue. This isn't a give-and-take. You can't bargain your way to making "Palpatine threw the fight" work.

You've got it backwards. Palpatine was trying to destroy Mace, before the point of apparent weakness.

This is just an excuse used to throw out anything Lucas says which contradicts your position.

 

But the question is is that was his disarming of Palpatine the action that counts as winning a duel? Obi-Wan was disarmed in TPM yet still was able to achieve victory over Maul.
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the difference there though is, and I hate to use a cliche, both Maul and Mace lost because the "plot demanded it"

Maul stood there like a lemon, trying to do a Jim Carrey impression looking menacing (seriously what was with the weird expression looking down on Obi-Wan..?

Mace did an over exaggearated swing to kill Sidious after having a debate of ethics with Anakin, like you would... (Palps had just killed 3 jedi masters afterall)

 

I still feel like disarming your enemy doesn't mean you win a duel.

 

would you say the same if the weapons in question were guns?

 

Mace disarmed Palpatine, and then Palpatine killed Mace with Anakin's help. Palpatine defeated Mace.

 

No I wouldn't. Lightsaber duels are a lot different than blaster duels.

 

Thank you.

 

not in the hands of a Jedi.

A lightsaber is just as dangerous if not more than dangerous than a blaster in the right hands,


it's the Jedi's chosen weapon



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Mace disarmed Palpatine, and then Palpatine killed Mace with Anakin's help. Palpatine defeated Mace. ​

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yes we know.. we all saw the same film ​

thanks for the synopsis though ​

 

I have no clue what you're trying to say.

 

you said lightsaber duels are different than blaster duels

I say, not really.

 

Okay, those are our opinions, then.

My overall point is that I don't think a disarming of your foe means you win.

 

Hey, the 5 points I make aren't that lengthy. (I admit that my interpretation of GL's ROTS commentary is a little excessive ) Also, sometimes it takes some time to make an argument. Now, I can understand it if you don't want to take the time, but really the reason I responded is that I feel that you're not showing people who have an opposing viewpoint much respect. It doesn't take that long to read over those 5 points I stated, and I think once you're finished, you'd admit I've made valid well-reasoned points. So, people with my POV aren't unable to get the other side of the argument. We simply are presenting a valid way of interpreting the scene, and if you read my response Arawn Fenn, I think I present valid ways of interpreting the scene that accept many of the positions held by your side of the argument.

 

depends on the situation I think,

from the scene in question it would be pretty difficult to get out of it

however

that is not to say that Palpatine couldn't have force pushed Palpatine backwards, or even out the window (we know that limbs aren't required when using the force, so he didn't need to stretch his arms out to push him, -you only need to use limbs when manifesting physical aspects of the force like lightning) but Palpatine had lost his saber, without a saber not much he could have done

 

Urm, Palpatine has an incredible ability to predict the future?. Yes, it was this incredible ability that helped him defeat Luke. And this "Prophecy" is the biggest load of ***p I've ever heard in my life. Oh your not the chosen one, OK, I'll sit here with my feet up and a nice cup of tea and it will make no difference because your not the chosen one so you can't kill me. Also why the hell did Yoda face Palpatine and send Obi-Wan to face Anakin? They knew what the prophecy said.

Anyway getting back to the point, I have no doubt that he sensed Anakin and yes, he may have foreseen what was going to happen but I still believe it was too risky for him to lose the fight. I mean what would have happened if instead of giving the speech Mace instead struck him? Anakin would have been in no position to help him. Anyway everybody's entitled to their opinion, and mine will always be that Mace won.

 

I understand what you're saying. But I'm confused about this: are you saying that you need a lightsaber to use the force? Or is that just a sentence structure mishap?

 

Disarming your foe certainly doesn't mean you've won when your opponent has such powerful Force lightning that he can disarm Yoda with it.

 

That's my exact point with this situation.

 

no I'm saying he could have used the force to hold Windu back for awhile (ie wasn't just dependent on lightning) but without a lightsaber that could only last so long.

 

Ah okay, just needed clarification.

 

Disarming your foe certainly doesn't mean you've won when your opponent has such powerful Force lightning that he can disarm Yoda with it.
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totally different scenario, totally different situation, totally different setting,

Yoda is ducking from pods, flying all over the place and is a 2 foot frog with ears.

Mace wasn't dropping that lightsaber any time soon.

 

Allow me to put some more input in:

In order to decide who actually won the duel, we need to know when, exactly, the duel ended. Was the duel over when Palpatine was disarmed? Or was the duel over when Mace got thrown out of the window? Or was it over when Mace had Palpatine begging for his life in front of Anakin? We need to know exactly when the duel was considered over to decide if Mace won or Palpatine won, because both of them had their victories at different points in the duel.

So I think we need to say when we think the duel was over to come to a conclusion about the victor.

 

This is possible, but it is very clear that Mace can't hold him off for long. He's really straining. In fact in the novelization, it says that Mace was an instant from being overwhelmed by the lightning (or something to that effect) and thenn suddenly Palpatine stopped attacking him. If you consider that Palpatine is clearly faking it since he comes back at full force (also GL says so) and that the novelization indicates that Mace was about to be overwhelmed, it seems more likely to me that Mace is the one who will tire first.

I also go back to fact that Palpatine instigated the confrontation with the Jedi in the first place when he told Anakin that he was a Sith and then tells Anakin that he is wise for wanting to go tell the Jedi about his identity. Palpatine has set up the situation. If he had any fear that the Jedi might actually threaten his life, then he would have backup there to support him or he simply would have let them arrest since he does control the courts. For Palpatine not to take these precautions would indicate that he's an idiot, and if there's one thing we know, he's not an idiot.

 

IMO "when Palpatine was disarmed" that's when I believe the fight was over. Also I would like to point out that IF Palpatine wanted to appear weak and helpless in front of Anakin, then why did he blast Mace with lightning?