PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

well if you're talking about physics of the blade then it would be more dangerous to do such a thing in the GFFA, especially if the blade has no weight behind it

But to explain all that would take a looong time and a loong post and I'll probably lose you all half way through

 

I totally agree. In this case, it's a really helpful coincidence. It provides justification for the Jedi purge, and it allows Palpatine to turn Anakin, the Chosen One, into a Sith, thus seemingly preventing him from fulfilling the prophecy. So Palpatine's 2 biggest goals are helped by one coincidence. But hey, coincidences happen, and who knows, this coincidence could be the will of the Force. The Force works in mysterious ways.

The only thing I would perhaps disagree with you on is if you go from the films, themselves. Some people just don't care what GL says for a number of reasons--he's inarticulate, he changes his mind, sometimes he lies, etc--or they just think an interpretation should come from watching the film itself. (Of course, wookieepedia should go with GL's interpretation if there's a disagreement; thing would get too complicated.) I think if you go from the films themselves then either argument can be made: Mace won the duel or Palpatine threw the duel at a time that would be convenient for him. Again, that's only by going by what you see.

Also, there are other interpretations that no one's brought up yet.

• Mace won the duel, but Palpatine was okay with losing the duel because he foresaw that Anakin would enter the room just after Mace disarmed him.
• Palpatine couldn't beat Mace in a duel, but he was only playing defense (sort of like how MMA artists do "lay and pray" or "wall and stall" or whatever you call what Lyoto Machida does), so since he wasn't going for the kill, he was able to hold off Mace for as long as he needed, but if Palpatine weren't going for full defense, then that would have opened up holes in his defense that Mace could've exploited. (For instance, he could've lunged and unsquared his shoulders when he had his saber 6 inches from Mace's chest but that may have created an opportunity for Mace to counteract.)
• Both Mace and Palpatine were holding back, so we can't know who would've won if they were going full out. (Mace was holding back b/c he was trying to capture not kill Palpatine, as he doesn't kill Palpatine after disarming him, and Palpatine was holding back b/c he needed Anakin to see Mace as a traitor.)

When you go only from the films, you're allowed to imagine what's going through the characters' minds and come to different conclusions about intent and take into account things like Palpatine encouraging Anakin to reveal his true identity knowing that it will lead to a confrontation with the Jedi. This type of interpretation makes things more complicated and sometimes less black-and-white, but it's still a valid type of interpretation. A type that I prefer. It's actually also the approach used more often literature studies, though I'm not sure that really makes it any better.

 

I totally agree about Lucas being way too inconsistant with what he says, to the point that it goes beyond irritation. The reason why I agree with him though is because.

1. he tells us what happeneed on screen (about Mace disarming him)

2. he tends to give Sam. L Jackson exactly what he wants

"I wanna be in Star Wars"

"ok"

"I wanna purple Lightsaber"

"ok"

"I don't wanna go out like a punk"

"ok"

Palpatine couldn't beat Mace in a duel, but he was only playing defense (sort of like how MMA artists do "lay and pray" or "wall and stall" or whatever you call what Lyoto Machida does), so since he wasn't going for the kill, he was able to hold off Mace for as long as he needed, but if Palpatine weren't going for full defense, then that would have opened up holes in his defense that Mace could've exploited. (For instance, he could've lunged and unsquared his shoulders when he had his saber 6 inches from Mace's chest but that may have created an opportunity for Mace to counteract.)
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that's plausible, but as I have said before though you don't take chances when a lightsaber (and and expert swordsman at that holding it) is pointing at you

 

But you might take that chance if you have so much going for you if you can succeed. For instance, Palpatine may have thought: "There's a 25% chance I'll die if I go full defense, but I'll take that risk b/c if I can survive just before Anakin enters the room there's 100% chance I'll be able to turn Anakin to the dark side and get my evidence to justify the Jedi purge." Since Palpatine caused the confrontation to occur in the first place, he must have been doing this sort of thinking, but who knows if he reasoned it the same way I did.

 

from what I've gathered from the whole scene from where he is backed into the corner the following happens

Palps plays weakness to Anakin: I was right , the Jedi are taking over

Anakin doesn't respond to this, and Mace goes on to say the Sith had lost

both things upsets Palps and his ego so he loses composure: NO! NO! YOU WILL DIIIEEE

*throws lightning at Mace*

Palps: he's a TRAITOR

Mace: no he is the traitor

again Anakin just stands there

Palps then changes tactic

Palps: I have the power to save the one you love, you must choooosse

Mace: don't listen to him Anakin

Again, probaly sensing conflict in Anakin Palps again changes his tactic to

Palps: I can't hold it any longer I've become to weak Anakin help me, help me.

so he goes from:

the Jedi are dangerous > i've the power to save your wife > if you don't do something soon i'm a gonner and so is your wife

all attempts of a desperate man to get out of a situation,

there is no doubt that Palps was trying to kill Mace when he upset Palps Sith ego.

 

Again, I think that interpretation is legit, but I would provide a different possible interpretation. You can't really fake helplessness in a saber duel: either you're dueling, you're disarmed, or you're chopped up. However, when using Force lightning, you can pretend to tire and become unable to defend yourself any longer. Once you're helpless, that places Anakin in a position where he has to choose. Either let Mace kill Palpatine or intervene. If Anakin had seen them dueling, then Anakin wouldn't have been forced to intervene because he wouldn't ever see Palpatine as being helpless.

So, this is the way I see it (just from watching the movie):

Palpatine lost the duel at a coincidental time or threw the duel on purpose.

Palps plays to one of Anakin's weaknesses: I was right , the Jedi are taking over

Anakin doesn't respond to this, and Mace goes on to say the Sith had lost

Palps isn't angered by this, but pretends to be so that he can use his lightning against Mace, pretend to lose his power and become weak. Or perhaps Palps really is angered by this, but then he realizes, "Hey if I stop doing using the lightning, and pretend to be helpless, then Anakin will really feel sympathy for me. Plus, I'll mention that stuff about his wife. Heh, heh, heh, that should do the trick. He'll turn on Mace then!"

And the strong evidence that Palpy only pretended to lose his power is that he bursts back to life full power right when Mace is disarmed and fries him at least as intensely as he did it before.

BTW I wonder if GL had these same types of discussions with someone when he was trying to figure out how to do this scene! He actually did shoot a different version that he was unhappy with, and he had to figure out how to redo it.

 

I always saw it as Palpatine bowing out just because Anakin was arriving. We've seen that tactic in so many other movies. The couple is wrestling around and then someone shows up and one of them feigns injury or greater discomfort, etc. I've never been one to watch fights to see who can outfight who, or think "who would win between Superman and Batman?" or whatever, so I've never watched that scene for anything other than the situation being presented by Palpatine.

 

I've always assumed that Mace beat Palpatine into the corner, but then Palpy played dumb to get Anakin to turn.

 

Nobody puts Palpy in the corner!

 

The Corner of Shame wanted a victim, and Palpy looked like a decent recruit.

 

This is how I feel as well. Skill with a lightsaber Mace won, but Palpatine played his way to live through the duel and used Anakin as his crutch to do that.

 

lol makes me think of this:

 

It was definitely intentional. Mace Windu would have been dead shortly after the other three if Sidious didn't have use for him. Sidious let Mace live as part of his plan to turn Anakin to his side. That's why he telepathically called out to Anakin, 'I have the power to save the one you love' during the duel. That's why he let the duel last that long. That's why he let Mace corner him right before Anakin got there. That's why he pretended to be weak. I'm actually surprised that even Yoda lasted as long as he did, but I guess Sidious was just having a lot of fun with that battle and was in no hurry to end it because he knew he could win and he already had Anakin under his control and pretty much everything in place.

 

Technically, if he did indeed telepathically call out to Anakin, it was before the duel.

 

That was Palpatine telepathically calling out to Anakin? I got the impression that it was a memory of an exchange not seen on screen. I could be wrong.

 

I always thought it was a memory he was replaying in his mind that was constantly fighting with himself. I could have been Palps calling out to him, but I doubt it.

 

Yeah, I agree. Although you have to wonder when exactly Palpatine said this, because it couldn't be before the reveal and that is the last onscreen scene at this point. Strange.
Another similar question I have is how we hear a Tusken cry after Palpatine remarks "Remeber what you told me about your mother, and the sand people?" on the Invisible Hand. Anakin's subconscious maybe?

 

I think that was just thrown in there as a sort of reminder and just to add to the effect of Anakin's past anger. I don't think it was his subconscious necessarily, though it could have been.

 

Yeah, I don't believe it was Palpatine "calling" to Anakin, but rather it was Skywalker thinking about past conversations and the consequences if Palpatine was taken down.

 

As far as I am concerned, Mace Windu bested Palptine. That's what we saw, that's what George said, and that is the only feat that helps him live up to his reputation. The guy was one the greatest Jedi Masters the jedi order ever produced. Why can't people let him have his feat is beyond me. Is it because he is Black?? Bald?? Played by Sam Jackson, or is it the purple blade? Had Yoda taken Palpatine down instead of Mace, would people have a problem with it?
Granted, Mace is not quote up there with Yoda when it comes to raw force power, but like Darth Maul, the guy is a light saber machine. He masted all 7th forms or combat, and created one. It's obvious his specialty it's dueling..
Now, Had Windu and Palpatine had sword Free battle with nothing with the force as their weapon, he would have lost. But Mace did beat Palpatine..

 

The only reason I agree Mace 'beat' Sidious initially was George's commentary. However, as to the other things you say:

What reputation? Mace did nothing much of import in the PT beforehand. Yeah he took down Jango but come on. That's not really that big of a deal. Any Jedi Master or Knight could have done it. Many Padawans could have done it. Obi Wan could have ended Jango on Kamino had he not been ordered to take him alive. And I bet you only reason Mace took him down was to appease Jackson's fanbase.Same stupid thing with Mace vs Palps. Plus Jackson was likely lobbying behind the scenes to make his character epic.

And Mace looks nothing like a saber machine. With Maul, Obi Wan and Yoda you can actually clearly SEE they are very skilled with Lightsaber combat. With Mace, you don't see that at all really. His duel with Sidious was pathetic.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Mace and Qui Gon should have been the same character, played by Neeson and hopefully remained till ROTS. Jackson should have been a bounty hunter, say a bounty hunter that beat the !#@@# out of his targets with a blaster rifle butt. A role in which he would shine. Casting him as the #2 on the Jedi Council, someone who was supposed to be in pure harmony with his inner self was one of the biggest mistakes of the PT.

 

Mace had the reputation of being the second strongest, the movies don't show it, but that's who he was.
Mace's defeat of Palpatine shows that he is a machine when it comes to dueling. Yoda couldn't do what Mace did.
Sam Jackson had nothing to do with who Mace Windu was.

 

So you fall under the Mace Windu sucks because Sam Jackson can't play any other roles besides the angry black guy camp...
Sounds about right. I think he did an awesome job as Mace Windu.

 

As I pointed out earlier, they have a problem with it because the quote you are referring to only addresses their light saber duel, not the fight that continued after Palpatine was disarmed. They also have a problem with it because GL said only the Chosen One can kill off the Sith, and since Mace isn't the Chosen One, he can't do it. They also have a problem because GL said that Palpatine was pretending to lose power and faking weakness when he was using his lightning against Mace. So, since Palpatine was pretending to lose power and fake weakness, they logically assume that Palpatine could have had held off Mace just as he had been doing or even disarmed him, since he disarmed a stronger Force-user Yoda.

A lot of people also don't care about what GL says, and they come to their interpretations from watching the films. In the films, Palpatine intentionally sets up the confrontation and we know that Palpatine is an incredibly smart man, so he wouldn't set up a confrontation in which he is likely to die. Furthermore, from watching the film, they see that what happens to Mace occurs in such a perfect way to make him look traitorous, which is exactly what Palpatine predicted that Anakin would soon discover about the Jedi, and since they reject the idea that the most important moment in a evil genuis's plan, a guy who plans everything meticulously, would amount to nothing more than a coincidence. Also, just from watching the films, they see that Palpatine instantly bursts back to life right after Mace is disarmed, proving that Palpatine was faking weakness all along.

Also, I strongly doubt that Sitara was saying that about Jackson b/c Sitara thought black actors should only play angry black characters. I assume he said it b/c Samuel Jackson excels at playing a bad ass in films and that that type of character fits closer to a smuggler than a Jedi, who are really sword-wielding monks.

 

Then the problem is simply their own confusion, since "the fight that continued after Palpatine was disarmed" is a separate thing. If someone says that "Mace bested Palpatine", that can only be a reference to the duel, because Mace did not best Palpatine afterward.

"They" seem to forget that Mace doesn't seem to have much faith in the prophecy at that point.

I guess if you think this point is working for you - sorry, I mean if "they" think this point is working for "them" - then why not use it more than once? By the time Palpatine is using lightning, the lightsaber combat is already over. So the occurrence of the lightning does not cause a "problem" with the concept that Mace bested Palpatine in the duel. Palpatine "pretending to lose power and faking weakness" at one point does not mean Palpatine necessarily faked anything at any other point. Palpatine can be legitimately beaten in the duel and still fake weakness later. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Besides, what Lucas said is obvious just from watching the film without Lucas.

Going for the strawman three-peat! Who here is claiming that Palpatine was not faking weakness right before Mace was disarmed? Why do you act as if constantly repeating this will somehow prove that Palpatine threw the duel?