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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did Mace Windu Survive?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Daxon101, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    The main difference is Maul lost his mind, and Talzin needed to heal his mind later.

    Vader got his medical attention, Maul did not. Vader didn't lose his mind while Maul lost his mind and he still needed Talzin's help to restore his mind.

    Vader would also lose his mind if he didn't get medical attention.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  2. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Did Mace Windu survive? As far as I know . . . no.
     
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  3. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Who lost his mind and why has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm making:
    - one survived mortal injuries because he recieved medical attention - believable
    - one survived mortal injuries and the loss of vital organs without medical attention - unbelievable
     
  4. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    No, he didn't. At least not until a new Star Wars story calls for him to have done so.
     
  5. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Medical attention didn't save Vader, the force did. Medical attention fixed Vader's body and mind. Vader would still survive but he would lose his mind like Maul did.
     
  6. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Medical attention can't fix someone's mind. But it did fix his body so that he could live. Considering what Maul could survive on his own it makes it nearly impossible to kill a Sith because the dark side can apparently compensate for even the most complex biological functions, which I find ridiculous - I mean how does the dark side help you pee and poop? IMO it always weakens the stories in SW when the only explanation is "because the Force".
     
  7. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Medical attention helped Vader so he didn’t need to use the Force to sustain himself anymore after wearing his suit. No one helped Maul so he needed to use the dark side to sustain himself for a very long time which caused him to lose his mind as a result. That's how medical attention saved Vader's mind.

    Using new Force abilities weakens the story? Of course not. No one questions when people use supernatural abilities such as telekinesis, telepathy, shooting lightning, turning into ghosts, surviving in the space then pulling yourself to the spaceship, and project your mind and your image from another planet, and teleport objects through the time and space etc. That's how the space wizards operates in the fictional universe.

    You can't explain how even one of these supernatural abilities works, but you are questioning how Maul survived, when we already know Vader survived the worse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  8. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    George Lucas said he did.
     
  9. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Windu? When?
     
  10. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
  11. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Yeah well he is too late, in 2016 Lucas already sold the whole thing. Plus I don't see Lucas talking there, all I see Samuel Lee Jackson, who says 'Lucas may approve' which means nothing after selling Star Wars.
     
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  12. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Lucas may not have a hand in “canon,” but his word is still law as far as I’m concerned for the 6 films and Clone Wars - that will always be his universe.

    Sam wouldn’t lie about it either, he respects George too much.
     
  13. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Yeah maybe he is not lying, but it's still not enough. Lucas himself needs to say that and I doubt he ever will. We also know Jackson wants it so much he is maybe exaggerating. It's not enough for saying that Lucas confirmed it, he never did. All I see is Jackson is talking about his own headcanon.
     
  14. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Loosing half of your body is far more serious than loosing four limbs and suffering second- and third degree burns. How does the dark side help him pee and poop so that his body can rid itself of all the waste products that needs to go before they poison his body? Without a stomach and the intestines, how does the dark side help him absorb fluids, the vital nutriants, and energy it needs to stay alive? Why did he need prostheses - if the dark side compensate for complex, vital functions in a body (and is apparently unlimited) couldn't it simply grow him a new lower body?

    Look, when you have even a small understanding of how complex the various processes in the body is, then yes, simply inventing a new Force ability to help the writers get out of the corner they had written themselves into comes off to me as both ignorant and contrived. Only poor writers need to use the Force as deus ex machina. Even a fictional universe with space wizards has established rules and internal logic, and if these things are continually watered down the universe, IMO, becomes less satisfying and boring - and in the case of this fictional universe: down right stupid (I'm looking at you Disney SW).

    If you like that kind of thing then good for you.
     
  15. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    I asked you a simple question and you didn't answer it.

    Can you even explain how those supernatural abilities works? Which is apparently it makes sense to you since you're questioning how the dark side help Maul to sustain himself but you don’t question how those supernatural abilities works and it makes sense to you when people turn into ghosts and shoot lightning from their fingers.

    But then you are wondering how he can survive without a stomach etc. And you think burning by lava river isn't worse (and no it's even worse than third degree) since he was also poisoned due to toxic fumes of lava and he sat down on those volcanic ground for a while with those volcanic burn wounds which covered his entire body even his eyes.

    There are Force abilities such as Force drain, both Talzin and Sidious used it in the new canon. It's a dark side ability and it's possible that Maul used it to sustain himself during his exile.

    If he used that ability then he doesn't need anything else. We've seen Talzin turned her ghost body into a tangible body and Sidious used it to repair and heal his decaying body.

    The thing that I disagreed is that this is possible through the dark side. Which is why if Mace Windu is going to return in the new canon (there is no clue that he did so far, and they said he died), then he should be a dark sider, but that ship has also sailed when he helped Rey as a light sider in TRoS.

    But you bumped the thread by quoting only the part of my post which was related to Maul, and you seriously tried to find a medical explanation on why Vader's survival makes sense but Maul's not. For one, Maul isn't even a human, he is an alien. And secondly you don’t question other supernatural Force abilities but you tried to question Maul's dark side sustainment ability. There are no logical explanation for the Force, that’s why they call it sorcery.
     
  16. Jake Starkiller

    Jake Starkiller Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 6, 2020
    Both medically and narratively, it makes no sense for him to survive, no matter how cool it would be.
     
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  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    This reads more like Sam Jackson saying, "But he could have survived, right, George? Right?" and George just going, "Yeak, okay, sure. Whatever you say, Sam."
     
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  18. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    It was important that he didn't survive because he was kind of the heavyweight champion Jedi. He's the big, strong, reliable lad you want on your team, and yet Anakin and Palpatine got rid of him in double time. I know Yoda is still around, but Mace is kind of the muscle of the Jedi Council. With him gone, it adds to the feeling of helplessness within the Jedi ranks.
     
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  19. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Um he is directly referencing a conversation he had with George Lucas. That's not headcanon.
     
  20. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    He was trying to get the confirmation of his own headcanon from Lucas. And Lucas was probably like 'Yeah sure whatever' and then in the same interview he also says Lucas doesn’t have anything to do with this anymore. So Jackson himself knows that when he says this. It's possible that he is either assuming that Lucas would be ok with it or he implies that Lucas can't interfere so Disney should bring him back. Either way I don’t see where Lucas confirms anything or says anything like you said he did.

    When you say Lucas confirmed it I didn’t expect to see Jackson is talking about it again. He even says Lucas is not deciding anything anymore so it's pointless to bring Lucas into this after saying that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
    The_Phantom_Calamari likes this.
  21. The Senate

    The Senate Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 12, 2020
    Im surprised legends didn't bring him back since they brought every other chart term back it seems.Would love to see him return and have revenge on Palpatine only to be killed.
     
  22. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Honestly, why would he survive? Just for him to get killed by Palpatine again, or Vader?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
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  23. Elder74

    Elder74 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 3, 2020
    Before the release of Revenge of the Sith I knew there would be a jedi purge. I speculated that Mace's death was in situation where Boba managed to kill Mace Windu in a fire fight where Mace was leading a squad of clones and Boba disguised himself as trooper and then avenged his own father and managed to escape while the squad that was under the lead of Windu tried to persue Boba but failed.

    when I have seen Revenge of the Sith I was absolutely convinced that Sidious toasted Mace' brains into dust by the amount of power he released upon the disarmed Jedi Master.

    Not exactly how I imagined his death but it seemed like a lethal dose of force lightning and push into the depths or Coruscant. If it was not for the lightning then the fall and injuries would have caused his death for sure.

    They brought back Darth Maul in a CGI animated series as half cyborg. That was a big bummer for me. According to the Star Wars logic that is in my head scenarios like these are very unlikely. But I am not the one to decide that and these are just my humble thoughts on the theory.

    Mace Windu, has been betrayed and killed by Darth Vader and Darth Sidious.
     
  24. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Yep, and it opened the door for the resurrected Palpatine nonsense. If you're not dead after being chopped in half and thrown down a reactor shaft, or being toasted by force lightning, maimed, and kicked out of a 1432nd storey window 20 miles above street level... But this seems a problem with these overused fictional universes - nobody ever dies in Marvel, and in Star Wars it's becoming the same.

    Ask yourselves - how surprised would you be if Episode X opens with the spirit of Kylo Ren reanimated - after all, he died right on Planet Sith, where they have the know-how - and is it that big a stretch for force ghosts to achieve corporeality again? After all, we know they can affect the physical universe... who doesn't want to see Luke redeem himself in Episode XI? And who's that popping up in XII with a degree of dramatic irony (it rhymes) to chop the arm off Palpatine mark 3? Mace Windu, just in time to stop the Emperor from activating his trillion strong fleet of Super Death Stars poised to destroy the galaxy...
     
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  25. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    I didn’t have to wonder about how those things worked because when I was introduced to SW and the Force in the OT, it was a fairly hard magic system: I knew what it was and how it could be used, and the limitations, and the costs/benefits, and I accepted that was how magic worked in the GFFA (I could even have accepted that the Force could keep your body alive forever, though I would have found it no less bothersome as I do now). The PT failed somewhat with the portrayal of the Force but since then it has deteriorated into a state where there is no tension or limits at all.

    IMO, in all creative works that makes use of magic there needs to be some kinds of consistencies with the rules to maintain my suspension of disbelief. If I know the magic can allow for the characters to do certain things and what the limitations are, I’m predisposed to accept the magic in the fantasy world.

    He didn’t burn in a lava river, his clothes caught fire which makes a big difference concerning the amount of heat energy his body was exposed to and he still had all his vital organs though many sustained damage. But you are right that, Like Maul, Vader's injuries are fatal on their own, but fortunately he received medical attention. We have people in our world who has survived injuries that should have killed them (i.e. Catrin Pugh survived severe burns to 96% of her body), but they all survived due to receiving proper medical care (and the medical technology in the GFFA is shown to be superior to what we have) and the will to live.

    I got to be honest, I don’t consider the “new canon” to be any more than professional fanfiction (even the few things I enjoy), but that is another discussion.

    But good for them, they once again came up with something new the Force could be used for – I don’t know the instances you mention, but I have very little faith that it wasn’t simply developed because they had written themselves into a corner or thought something like that would be cool so s…w such things as rules and logic.

    But if we play around with the idea of him surviving his confrontation with Palpatine, it doesn’t have to be because of “the Force”: “all” Mace would need was to have his fall softened and receive the proper medical care. Yes, I think it would still be very contrived, but if they could come of with a decent scenario I could accept it even if I didn't agree with it.

    I have never needed to think about Vader’s survival because all I see is a severely injured man who manages to cling to life for long enough to get the help he needs. Until Maul was brought back, I have never for a moment considered that Vader could have survived indefinitely in the condition he was in simply by using the Force – the Force was never needed to explain anything because Palpatine found him ,and his body was stabilized and kept alive by the advanced medical knowledge and technology available in GFFA. To me, Vader’s survival is no more extraordinary then the many examples of “miraculous” survival stories from our own world.

    Maul’s survival, on the other hand, is based entirely on the Force. We know from our own world that it is possible (though very rare) to survive loosing the lower part of your body, but we also know that without proper medical care, death is certain. And no, it doesn’t matter that Maul is an Alien because his body is nearly completely similar to that of a human, and considering his species is described as “near-human”, I think it is safe to assume that his anatomy and physiology is not too different from ours. But even if he was a completely different species, everything that has arms, legs, a head, and a torso always carry the vital organs (except for the brain) in the torso, and loosing a part of it will always result in death without proper medical help.

    So they retcon Vader’s survival to be based on the Force simply to justify their explanation for Maul surviving, and that is what I consider poor writing because they had all the tools available in the fantasy world that is the GFFA to make Maul’s survival believable even without the Force. Instead they chose the lazy way and used the Force as a deus ex machina.

    I never needed a “logical explanation” for the Force until the PT because in the OT, it was (for the most part) shown to have rules and limitations, and that is how good magic systems works, IMO. Constantly changing or expanding the rules makes the stakes feel less real. Part of the tension in a story is wondering how characters will get out of the, sometimes terrible, situations they are in. Knowing that the writers can (and will) deus ex machina in some new rule or solution lowers the stakes and is, IMO, poor writing.

    As I said, if you like that the magic in a fantasy world is so undefined so that it can be used to solve any problem, then that’s good for you – you certainly have many more things to enjoy than I do. I personally find it unappealing and inferior when compared to the stories out there where the writers have put painstaking efforts into their stories to make sure everything is as logical and as concise as possible.

    But each to their own.