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PT Did Palpatine Believe That Anakin Was The Chosen One?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Rossini18, Sep 15, 2018.

  1. Rossini18

    Rossini18 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    We all know that Palpatine recognized Anakin's prodigious skill and power in the Force soon after first meeting him and made it his duty to take Anakin under his wing in order to eventually turn him into his Sith Apprentice. But did Palpatine believe or even care that Anakin was supposed to be the chosen one?

    First, I'd like to point out the necessary role that Palpatine needed an apprentice to fill for the final stages of his plan: he needed someone powerful in the dark side to assist the clones in slaughtering the Jedi and to eliminate any surviving leaders of the Separatists as it would have been too risky for him to do it himself(although his plan would have not been effected negatively if the Separatists would have been defeated by the Republic's war effort first). He also needed a Sith Apprentice to keep the massive Military as well all of the Galaxy's citizens in line as it would have been too damaging to his image for him to do it himself and he also had no wish to do it anyway as he wanted to focus solely on his studies of the dark side of the Force.

    So it appears to me that Palpatine needed an apprentice for this point exclusively and the role that Dooku would eventually take was not meant to complete the final stages of his plan nor to proceed as second in command of the Empire. Dooku's role was obviously meant to lead the Separatist movement and was required to be a Sith(or as close to a Sith as possible as Dooku is arguably not a full Sith Lord) because Palpatine needed someone to represent his interests and enforce his will who he could trust to do so and who was loyal to his cause. The Separatist movement would have most likely failed if the corporate powers behind it would not have united against the Republic in the first place or cowered to the Republic's demands/authority. Or the Separatist movement could have been organized and led by someone who was a legitimate opponent towards the Republic which would have taken away Palpatine's authority, ruining his plans to control both sides of the war. Perhaps most crucially this person needed to be a fallen Jedi who could later be used as a scapegoat in furtherance of Palpatine's false assertion that the Jedi were the ones who had wanted to overthrow the Republic although it is possible that Palpatine could have convinced the Senate that the Jedi were in control of the person or merely had grown power hungry and disloyal during the Clone Wars and sought to use the chaos to their own benefit. Both of those scenarios however could have been disproved through investigations or simply could have been perceived as having no foundation in fact so a fallen Jedi was needed to cement/boost the credibility of Palpatine's claims that they wanted to overthrow the Republic and their extermination was justified. In order for this to work of course, the person needed to be killed by someone loyal to Palpatine as the Jedi killing him would not have made sense ( Note: if Anakin had not been burnt he would have been portrayed as the only Jedi who remained loyal to Palpatine's cause given he had "no knowledge of this plot").

    So we can determine that Palpatine had significant need for an apprentice to complete the Sith Grand Plan and to become an important figure in the operations of the Empire. This concludes me to believe that Palpatine did not want Anakin because he was the chosen one and did not carve out the role he would eventually give to him after his discovery of him. He needed someone to fill this spot who was extremely powerful and Anakin was basically gift wrapped for him and who also happened to be even more powerful(or at the very least had the potential to be) than the standard qualifications of the apprentice that he needed at this stage and for the future. So no, I would conclude that Palpatine did not care or perhaps not even believe that Anakin was the chosen one. What do you think?
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It's hard to say. It's possible Palpatine placed stock in the prophecy but figured that by turning Anakin to his side he was successfully subverting it and flouting destiny. It's also possible that he sincerely believes that, as he says, Anakin is "fulfilling [his] destiny" by joining the Sith, in which case he probably considers the prophecy bunk. Either way, purported destiny or not, he obviously doesn't think Anakin will end up destroying the Sith.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  3. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    He believed Anakin was the Chosen One in Legends, e.g., in the novel "Darth Plagueis."
     
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  4. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    A notion that gives the line “POWER!!! UNLIMITED POWEEEERRR!!!!!” deeper meaning!
     
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Yeah! That seemed more than just victory over Mace, even more than simply knowing he has snared Anakin now. It makes sense he is aware Vader is officially not going to be the Jedi to fulfill anything now.
    And Sidious probably suspects even if he is killed the Sith will still rule forever as Vader will never turn back.
     
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  6. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I like the fact that it was left ambiguous.

    Does a Sith lord know of Jedi prophecies? do the Jedi casually go around shouting "oy Chancellor you ever hear about the one about the chosen one, we think it might be Ani...anyway, the war, yes, you were saying...."

    I doubt it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  7. Rossini18

    Rossini18 Jedi Knight

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    Jan 3, 2016
    Anakin most likely confided in him about the fact that the Jedi definitely thought he was.
     
  8. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 12, 2017
    Palpatine would have been aware of the prophecy, but he may not have put much stock in it. Palpatine gives the impression of being an avid scholar. Indeed, he tells Anakin, "if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi".

    As Palpatine had a contemptuous view of the Jedi. It may be that Palpatine simply regarded the prophecy as another instance of misguided Jedi nonsense.

    Palpatine may also have concluded that true balance came from the rule of the Sith and that Anakin brought that about. Therefore, Anakin would have fulfilled the prophecy from a certain point of view.
     
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I'd say no. It doesn't make much sense for Palpatine to believe in a Jedi prophecy. Him recognizing Anakin's potential and strength in the Force doesn't require the prophecy or any belief in it. After all, Qui-Gon recognized Anakin's unusual strength way before he did the midi-chlorian test that tied him to the prophecy.
     
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  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Good point, that makes sense. But still, this would imply he knew of their prophecy and didn't buy into it himself. So when he turns Anakin he is kind of rubbing it in that they don't know what they are talking about. Backed up by later telling Yoda "Your arrogance blinds you", which while may be partially true, he is not seeing his own arrogance will be his downfall, in not taking their prophecy seriously.

    Yes, it isn't essential to Palpatine's belief in Anakin. But it poses an interesting question.
    Something trivial is a dialogue echo to Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon's first suspicions Anakin is not an ordinary person -
    Obi-Wan: "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count that high!"
    Palpatine: "I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda."

    It may be coincidental but it could imply Palpatine knows more than is explicitly stated onscreen.
     
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He knows Anakin's potential and he's feeding Anakin's ego.
     
  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Of course.
    But that is a base reading of the scene. Who knows what Palpatine is thinking beneath that.

    I just thought it was interesting that Obi-Wan and Palpatine essentially make the same observation.

    Palpatine's knowledge of the prophecy is unstated, much like whether Anakin was created by him, or the conundrum "If Anakin stayed a Jedi would Padme still die?"

    But it's fun to speculate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  13. Rossini18

    Rossini18 Jedi Knight

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    Jan 3, 2016
    I think Qui-Gon suspected that Anakin was the chosen one- why ask for a midichlorian count if not?
     
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, I don't think it's exactly the same as those conundrums, as I believe we can pretty safely assume Palpatine knows of the prophecy. There's no obvious reason Anakin wouldn't have told him about it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    You're right. I just meant it is a little similar because it is unstated really.
    I think it may have been not ever mentioned by Palpatine intentionally on Lucas's part, maybe it is a coincidence though.
    Or because it would diminish the climax of ROTJ, Palpatine being stated explicitly as aware of the prophecy? I'm not sure.
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    In Legends he definitely thought Anakin was the chosen one. In canon that’s a bit more unclear. I don’t think he ever expected Anakin to actually destroy the sith.
     
  17. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 9

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    Nov 20, 2012
    He wrote the prophecy on a slip of paper and slipped it underneath the door to Yoda's office.
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He suspected only after Shmi revealed the fact that there was no father involved in his conception (plus his previous awareness that the Force was unusually strong with him). The off-the-charts concentration is what led Qui-Gon to presume that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One.

    The point was that, prophecy or not, Qui-Gon could feel his strength in the Force. And if he can, so can Sidious. Hence why he watched his career with "great interest" ever since the events of TPM.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  19. xx_Anakin_xx

    xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 9, 2008
    I think Palpatine knew of the prophecy and that Anakin was a candidate for the chosen one. He probably knew it was feasible as long as Anakin was a Jedi, seeing how strong he was in the force.

    But he knew for CERTAIN when Anakin tossed him down the core shaft.
     
  20. jc1138

    jc1138 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2004
    I think that Palpatine knew of the Chosen One prophecy, but I doubt he gave it much credence, or worried that it may come to pass. I think it could have made acquiring Anakin all the more tempting to him, as a additional middle-finger to the Jedi.

    Also, Dooku could have informed Sidious, and we can presume Dooku knew of the prophecy, as TPM doesn't make Qui-Gon's knowledge of the prophecy seem unusual.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    "Well, whaddya knowwwwWWWWWWWWAAAAAGH!"
     
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  22. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Personally, I think Palpatine couldn't have cared less about any Jedi prophecy. He didn't really think much of the Jedi anyway. So why would he care much about some vague prophecy some cult he doesn't really believe in has? He wanted Anakin as Sith apprentice, him being such a good fighter, strong with the force and not 100% a believer of Jedi ideology. So.... I don't think he cared much about some "chosen one".
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He believes in foresight when it's his foresight, at least "I have foreseen it!"
     
  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Maybe, but the Sith and the Jedi are implied as having a level of somewhat respect for the other side because they all believe in the same force.
    At least the Sith seem to think more of the Jedi than they do of non-force-sensitives.

    Tarkin: "Obi-Wan Kenobi? Surely he must be dead by now."
    Vader: "Don't underestimate the force."
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
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  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    That's an ex-Jedi commenting on another Jedi' surviving skills. But yes, they are aware of each other's existing connection to the Force (and respective abilities). Doesn't mean they share the same beliefs. Palpatine says so himself when he comments on the limited and "narrow" views of the Jedi regarding the Force. The Force is not a matter of belief to both of them. It's something that exists and that they follow and use. The Jedi respect the will of the Force and try to follow it, while the Sith don't. They see the Force as a mere tool for their own purposes. The Jedi are aware of the dangers of the dark side, while the Sith not only don't see but don't care.

    It's why the Sith exist to begin with: so that they aren't limited to the Jedi beliefs and limitations of their teachings.

    The prophecy of the Chosen One is not only a Jedi prophecy but it makes no sense for a Sith to believe in it. It's basically foretelling their own doom.

    If Palpatine believes in one thing regarding Anakin, is the undeniable potential and power within him. A potential and power that he can control and use for his own purposes by turning him to the dark side and making him his servant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018