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Saga Did Palpatine ever even need Anakin or Luke?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ghost, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Did Palpatine ever even need Anakin or Luke?

    In ROTS, I can't think of anything he needed Anakin for.

    Nor was the presence of Vader key to the Empire continuing.

    In ROTJ, Palpatine wouldn't lose anything if both Vader and Luke both died, as long as he survived. And neither influenced the outcome of the battle.

    As for a successor... the Old EU (Legends), Palpatine never planned on dying. In the New EU (Canon), Palpatine planned on burning the whole Empire down if he died, no matter the cause.

    For all Palpatine thought, he won. Why would he need an apprentice at all? Did Palpatine ever even need Anakin or Luke?
     
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  2. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think this would depend on whether you believe Palpatine wanted the Sith line to continue past his lifetime.

    If you argue that he wanted the Sith to rule forever with or without him, his successor would continue their legacy as master to their next apprentice, and so on.
    So turning Anakin, who he may have known was prophecised to kill him, would mean either Vader eventually dies and Sidious finds a new apprentice. Or Vader kills him himself, but as a Sith (because previous Sith have never turned back) rather than a Jedi so just takes his place... and the Jedi without their chosen one (and Order66 happening) are out of power permanently. Turning Anakin specifically is a huge middle-finger to them.
    Anakin is also supposed to be the potentially most powerful force user. And as a former Jedi, Anakin can be used to take them off-guard from within the Order.

    Either way he needs an apprentice as an enforcer and as a loyal extension of his own dark will.
    Tradition maybe? Or just because he wants to have that power over another almost-equally-powerful being?

    Trying to turn Luke is where he gets greedy. Well, greedier.
    He doesn't need Luke, it is just Luke's raw potential compared to a crippled Vader. It is pretty much just so he can do things "quicker, easier" in my opinion. Why rule with an iron fist when you can rule with an ... um, bigger iron fist?
    Luke is not essential to his plan at all, and his megalomania in trying to intertwine the Rebel attack on the DS2, dangling his own presence and the supposedly inactive battlestation as targets, and using it to get at Luke and end the Rebels and turn Luke with one swift stroke, of course backfires exponentially.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  3. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2016
    I think Palpatine never cared about the Sith or his rule of two
    He only cared about the power I think he would have never allowed Vader or Luke or someone else to try to kill him. He killed the Jedi Order because they impeded his absolute power I think he would do the same with the Sith
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It's very hard to say, I can definitely understand that point of view.

    But he states in AOTC "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two." - A double-meaning because he is going to "unite" it as an Empire for possibly 1000 more.
    And in ROTS "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy. And we shall have peace."
    It is just my reading, but I feel "The Sith" in this statement sounds like it could reference future masters and apprentices permanently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  5. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    He didn't need either of them to complete his plan - he could have taken over without it. But Sidious was afraid of Anakin - he feared the Chosen One's potential and recognized the danger. What would have happened if Sidious had treated Anakin like any other Jedi? I'm not sure, but I think Sidious himself thought that if he did this, Anakin would take him down. In a way, he created his own biggest threat. It's somewhat cyclical.

    Then again, maybe if Sidious had ignored Anakin, Anakin would have been one of the lone Jedi to survive and he would have fought Sidious in the Senate chamber much like Yoda actually did, but only this time Sidious would have ended up dead because Anakin, unlike Yoda, was the Chosen One.

    It really goes back to: did Sidious take Anakin seriously as a threat? Yes, Sidious CHOSE to do that - I think he would have been defeated either way, so in that sense, no, he didn't need Anakin (or Luke) as due to the prophecy Sidious would have lost either way.
     
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  6. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    I've often thought about this and the only conclusion I can come up with is that no, but he wanted them to continue the legacy of the Sith, And he needed the Skywalkers because they are the strongest candidates in the force. Sith are about power, the stronger the better, so who better than have ones with the biggest concentration of midichlorians in your ranks. So in that respect I disagree that the Sith order meant nothing to him. If that was so he'd have no interest in apprentices at all.

    I know that if I was a Sith and I was afraid of someone's potential I'd kill them in their sleep or something ;) problem solved :p however in SW the biggest flaw of the Sith is extreme arrogance, so it is possible Darkslayer's theory is indeed correct.
     
  7. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    He definately needed Anakin in some way. If Anakin isn't on his side, then Anakin will be on the side of the Jedi, making his goal of taking over the galaxy far harder.

    It's also good a have a trustworthy enforcer who will keep your underlings in line. That way you can make sure that people who aren't in your immediate vicinity still fear you. After all, Palpatine can't possible travel all over the galaxy to deal with people who get a bit too power-hungry. That's something you send other people for. And what better person than someone who is fiercely loyal to you and far more powerful than any of the minions he would have to deal with.
     
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  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    There's absolutely nothing--not one thing--in the films to indicate that Palpatine never cared about the Rule of Two. That was always an EU thing.

    The films themselves make it very clear that he does care about it, given the lengths he goes to in securing ever younger and more powerful apprentices. He even admits to Yoda that Darth Vader will become more powerful than him, and presumably take his place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  9. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    A strange thing for him to say, given how Sidious seems to go out of his way to make sure none of his apprentices can grow stronger than he.
     
  10. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Detective Potato star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Indeed - but just as he didn't count on Vader's injuries, he didn't count on Padme's death. As long as Padme was alive, he would have complete control over Vader. He might have allowed Vader to surpass him in raw power, but he would have made it so he was always the one with power over his actions

    At least, that's how I feel Palpatine would have seen the situation
     
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  11. Darth Vader's Chest Plate

    Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Did he need them? No. But to have potentially your mightiest foe as an ally is a good strategy.
     
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    When has he ever done this?
     
  13. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    His habit of repeatedly betraying them to their deaths (Dooku; Vader in ROTJ; Maul, who was left for dead) comes to mind.

    And equally, it seems to me as if Sidious' strategy was to set Vader up for the severe injuries he suffered on Mustafar. This would disregard several of his public statements -- but when has Sidious ever shown himself to be a rigorous truth-teller?

    I admit this perspective may be influenced by the Legends-era Force Unleashed video game, where Sidious treats Starkiller in exactly this way in the dark-side ending; and in the ROTS tie-in video game from 2005 the alternate ending has Vader surviving Mustafar unscathed and killing Sidious as a result.
     
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Betraying them at the expense of a new, more interesting apprentice (Dooku > Anakin, Vader > Luke). Not because they can grow more powerful than him.

    And Maul was not left for dead. He was considered dead. Hence why he picked Dooku afterwards.
     
  15. Snokers

    Snokers Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2015
    Palpatine, to my mind, was after absolute power and domination. From the start. I always think of him spending his earlier years relentlessly chasing it and being driven by the thought of seeing if he could actually pull it off one day, every being he managed to corrupt or use as a stepping stone along the way probably excited him even more - I see Vader and Luke more as sort of conquests than actual necessities to the Emperor, except maybe for ROTS where Anakin was useful to him with regard to helping with the Jedi purge and taking out the last of the Separatists.

    When you look at the new films, Snoke is kind of the same - we see in TLJ how immensely powerful he is and how he could break Rey and Kylo Ren in half symultaniously with a wave of his hand if he wanted.

    Though I smell lazy/bad writing in the Snoke thing somewhere but that's neither here nor there. :p:p
     
  16. libraryMom1

    libraryMom1 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2019
    I would argue that that idea of being motivated purely by self interests is the essence of all that is Sith. The rule of two accommodates this quite nicely by insuring the Sith always grow more powerful bc the self interested actors will fight each other and the most powerful will win.

    No Sith would allow an apprentice to kill them. But that fact does not effect the Sith or rule of two because if an apprentice becomes powerful enough he will do what human nature predicts, kill his master in his own self interest.

    That is the beauty of the Sith. Palpatine did not need to buy into the whole Sith ideal bc simply by acting in his best interest and only worrying about power he helped to maintain the Sith ways.
     
  17. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2017
    1. Palpatine would have never survived Mace Windu without Anakin
    2. I don't think Palpatine would survive Yoda and Obi-Wan after Order 66
    3. If Anakin would have survived Order 66, he would eventually become stronger than Palpatine
    4. Palpatine needed to hide his identify as a Sith and turn everyone against the Jedi, therefore needing a Powerful Aprentice to fulfil all of the Emperor's Missions.
    5. Imagine the Empire without Vader, Jedi and the Rebellion would have won the war long ago. Imperials made many mistakes and needed Vader to complete what they couldn't
    6. To pass on the Knowledge of the Sith, using the RULE OF 2.
     
  18. Prime Jedi

    Prime Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Imo Palpatine threw the fight to turn Anakin and could have defeated Windu if he wanted. I've always felt this because in the beginning of the duel when Palpatine spins, you can see that Mace can barely react, he just holds up his lightsaber just fast enough to not die, while all of his friends are killed. Plus, if Palpatine didn't turn Anakin then, it would be trouble for him, because the war was ending, and Anakin would soon safely deal with Padme's pregnancy, getting that anxiety off his chest, and he would eventually mature and most likely get the rank of Master, which would form a mutual respect between him and the council. So, essentially, the middle of ROTS was now or never for Palpatine.
     
  19. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2017

    At first Palpatine was toying with Windu, but once he used Vaapad using Sidious's own Darkside energy against him, Windu was in control and winning the Duel
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    1. Palpatine never would have revealed himself to Anakin. And Palpatine faked defeat.
    2. Palpatine didn't need Anakin for Yoda, and definitely not for Obi-wan.
    3. Perhaps. But in this scenario, Anakin wasn't needed, and would probably have been killed by Palpatine at 9 years old if he didn't want to turn him. Or, since it now seems to be canon that Palpatine CREATED Anakin, would simply not have created him.
    4. Anakin isn't needed for this.
    5. No, the Empire would still be pretty strong without Vader.
    6. Could have any other apprentice. Plus the Sith don't see it as a "rule", more like a natural tendency that's been observed.
     
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  21. dg1995

    dg1995 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2019
    I think he needed him since if he wouldn't turn Anakin, Anakin would easily kill him.(Since as a Jedi Anakin would face Palpatine to stop him.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  22. Libs

    Libs Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2018
    It depends, in order to say that you'll have to take Anakin out of the instances were he was involved in Sidious plans the most.

    what he did in ROTS was:

    Execute the attack on the Jedi tempel and killed the Seperatist Council:
    Both needed to done, would they have succeeded without Vader? Perhaps, maybe Sidious or another powerful dark warrior could have destroyed the tempel

    And killing the Seperatist Council, could have been done by a squad of Clones. Or again with a another darksider ( the grand inquisitor? )

    At this point it might as well be Anakin, he was top tier among the Jedi and would only increase in potential ( before the incident on Mustufar )
    A Sith is no master without an apprentice, Sidious himself thought Darth Vader would surprass both him and Yoda. Who else could possibly claim that?
    I think the prospect of such an unstoppable Dark Lord was too tempting and interesting to him. After he became crippled though I think Sidious just realized there weren't a lot of alternatives for a suitable candidad.

    And yet if you ask me Darth Vader was the nr 2 of the Empire in more than just name. He was the engine that kept it running succesfully for nearly 20 years. He never failed to keep people in line, defended the Empire's assests, and inspired loyalty through fear.
    He was there where the stormtroopers could not handle it.

    I don't think the Empire would have ran as nearly smoothly had Darth Vader died on Mustafar.
    Sidious was hardly gonna be there everytime skirmish or descent broke out. He wouldn't have the time as Emperor and considered it beneath him.
    He was the unbeatable brain, to Vader's unbeatable muscle.

    or vice versa
     
  23. Justin Gensel

    Justin Gensel Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2018
    I could see him as wanting to control Anakin and Luke for 2 reasons, 1.) their immense power in the Force makes them naturally good allies and excellent protection, so long as he keeps them somewhat stunted in their growth so as to control them. 2.) The Skywalkers prove to be very creative and intuitive when it comes to the use and manipulation of the Force, coming up with lots of new tricks and tapping abilities that even the most sage of the ancient masters just couldn't contemplate. Being able to piggyback on that and using their ingenuity to enhance his own powers seems TOTALLY in line with Palpatine as a generally greedy, knowledge hungry Sith and as a Dark Sider constantly looking for quick and easy ways around difficult problems. For Anakin specifically, it was their joint desire to cheat death and gain physical immortality and Palpatine probably figured since Vader was getting up in years, in addition to the loss of the bulk of his powers from his wounds, Luke would be a perfect replacement to continue that goal.
     
  24. Knight of Jedi Ren Sith

    Knight of Jedi Ren Sith Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2018
    Sith don't need; they want.
     
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  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    That doesn't mean Sidious can hold off his inevitable death forever. Anakin DID eventually destroy him, after all.

    And as to needing Anakin....in addition to having a second-in-command to assist in bringing his plans to fruition, Sidious loves being a Puppet Master. He's all about manipulating others to get them to do his bidding. Hell, almost everyone in the PT was his unknowing apprentice in one way or another.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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