PT Did Palpatine really "believe" in the Force - or merely use it?

The Jedi in the prequel era have a sense of ownership over the Force. They read its will but seem to interpret it in ways which suit them. They cling more to dogma and a strict moral code than to the Force itself. Others, like Qui Gon, believe only in the will of the Force and are, in a sense, totally subservient to its will, and as such are more vessels for it than masters of it.

On the other side, we have Maul and Dooku. Maul's concept of the Force is never really stated, but he seems to only have a hatred for Jedi and little else beyond a dedication to his Master. Dooku seems to view himself as still being a Jedi who is using the Sith to achieve his political goals and bring about the destruction of both orders. He starts out with good intent and gradually becomes an egomaniac.

Vader, despite being a Sith, seems to still respect the Force as something greater than he or any other being. He seems awed and in fear of the power of the Dark Side. To him, the Force is his religion, his source of life.

What about Palpatine? I have always felt that in a way, he was no true Sith. He was powerful Force user who drew upon the Dark Side for power and enhanced, inhuman abilities, but was also of strong enough willpower for him to master it, rather than it become his master. I think he only saw the Force as an instrument to achieve more power and did not hold it in any real regard or respect.

What do you think?

 

The Jedi as a whole believed in the will of the Force, but no one can truly know what the will is. They can only intuit what it is and proceed from there. The Jedi don't have a sense of ownership over the Force, as there are others in the universe such as the Dagoyan Masters of Bardotta, who also use the Force and have dedicated their lives to studying it, rather than using it as the Jedi or the Sith do. And the moral code is based on what they have seen from those who have become a Sith or a Nightsister/brother. That moral code is in line with the Force as well.

Palpatine was a true Sith Lord in every sense of the word. All Sith want to control the Force in order to control life. Maul, Tyranus and Vader were no different. Nor is Snoke, who is not a Sith. Palpatine was in awe of its power, which you can hear when he is talking to Anakin, trying to convert him. And again when he tries to convert Luke and Ezra Bridger.

 

The Jedi didn't claim owner ship of the force, they were servants of the force.

The Sith wanted to break the force to their will and dominate it.

The Jedi were passive and let the force guide them

The Sith used the Force like a weapon

Palpatine was a true Sith

 

When Vader's slagging on the Death Star and pumping up the power of the Force, it isn't because he respects it as something greater than himself. It's because he sees the Death Star as a threat to his own position in the universe. If it's a battle of technological superiority, the Death Star is a much better piece of hardware than Vader. But Vader still has something the Death Star can never have: a connection to the Force. The interesting thing here is that Vader's insecurity about the Death Star actually drives him to take some psychological refuge in his remaining humanity, albeit for the wrong reasons; still, it's perhaps an early foreshadowing of things to come. There is a strange sort of nobility in the way Vader stands up for the Force, even if he is talking about its dark side.

But let's not take it too far. As Sith, neither Vader nor Sidious treat the Force with the same reverence or respect that the Jedi do. Jedi are in awe of the power of the Force and so submit themselves to its will. The Sith are in awe of the power of the Force and so seek to bend its will to their own. The paradox is that the Jedi's submission becomes an acceptance which grants them spiritual freedom from suffering and longing, while the Sith's attempts to control the Force wind up imprisoning them within the inescapable hell of their insatiable egos. The Jedi merge their will with that of the Force and so become the controllers, while the Sith futilely chase after a power greater than they can ever be and so become the controlled.

 

The reward of power is power itself, to a Sith they're willing to sacrifice everything to get it, but its not a hell to them, its the joy of the pursuit of power and allowing your passions to take you there.

There's a reason why Jedi fall to the darkside, its not because they're spiritually corrupted, its because the power of the dark side is more compatible with our nature.

 

The dark side is a hell; just look at what happens to Anakin Skywalker when he becomes Darth Vader. It's a central metaphor of the series.

Darth Sidious sure looks like he's having a blast on the dark side, but look at what it's done to him. He's a rotting corpse. He's constantly searching for young, virile apprentices to compensate for his own lost vitality. His psychology is essentially that of an elderly sexual predator who preys on younger men, and Ian McDiarmid blatantly plays up this angle in his Revenge of the Sith performance. Sidious desperately needs something that is perpetually being wrenched from his grasp: youth.

The dark side's promise of power and reward is a lie. Once you get it, it never satisfies you, because you always want more.

 

Darth Sidious always seemed to me to revere the Sith as his religion. He sticks up for them when describing them to Anakin during the opera and he says Sith with such pride and reverence. "Not for a SITH!" "Once more, the SITH will rule the galaxy!" Yoda alludes to his faith in the dark side as well.

 

Definitely. For example:

He excavated the ancient Sith shrine under the Jedi temple.
He sent explorers to the Unknown Regions in search of the source of the dark side.
He had Sith artefacts in his office.
He was well versed in Jedi/Sith history.

Palpatine was a Sith Lord in the purest form.

 

Yes and let us not forget, the Revenge of the Sith is his. He was seeking vengeance on the Jedi for their near extinction of the Sith a thousand years ago. Darth Maul alludes to such as well in TPM and he learned it from Sidious.

 

I don't know if it is consistent with canon, but I've always guessed Jedi are the true GFFA religion and Sith sort of heretics: they do believe in the force, but in the way that suits them best without wonder whether what they are doing is right or isn't. In ROTS, Palpatine says Jedi hold dogmatic views and the two whole speeches he gives Anakin in the theatre and in his office sound a lot as recruiting someone to a dissident sect. Then, the just-turned Anakin says Jedi are narrow-minded, which is basically what a heretical dissident would say about the official representative of his former religion. So, IMHO, Palpatine believes in the force, but in a wrong way for wrong purposes, and probably he is even more Sith than Vader, who maybe is still tied to some of Jedi's views. Well, just my take, anyway!

 

From what I gather, the Jedi merely act as a conduit for the Force — they don’t attempt to bend it to their will, only simply letting the Force guide their mind and body. The Sith do the exact opposite. They want to control the Force, use it as a blunt weapon for their own design. They want to corrupt it.

Not sure if it’s canon anymore, but the reason behind Anakin’s creation by the Force was due to Palpatine and his master, Pelagius attempting to use the Force to create a perfect Sith warrior. The Force retaliated by impregnating Shmi with Anakin.

Palpatine’s speech about the Jedi being dogmatic and narrow-minded is basically him calling them gutless cowards for not using the Force to its full potential as the Sith do. It’s another way of saying, “The Jedi would rather spend their days in their ivory tower contemplating their navals rather than use the Force to bend others to their will.”

In short, he does believe in the Force, obviously, he just thinks the Jedi as spineless for not embracing a larger view of the Force.

 

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I never liked Luceno's attempts to pin down exactly what happened by harmonizing both potential explanations for Anakin's origin. I like it better as an either/or we simply don't know the answer to.

 

the jedi believed 'the Force will guide you'

Sidious believed the Force was there for him to use to bend things to his will.

 

The Jedi seek balance in all things, likewise the force.

Obi Wan- "Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him."
Luke- "You mean it controls your actions?"
Obi Wan- "Partially, but it also obeys your commands"

So the Jedi both submit to it, and also guide and direct it.

The Sith are indeed a heretical offshoot of the Jedi, by some schism that happened long ago, but they aren't like another denomination of Jedi; more the antithesis. They cannot be brought back into the fold.

I also agree that Palpatine seems to be very proud of his heritage, and absolutely devoted to the Sith cause and agenda. I can see him having studied all the dark history of his order, and learning about all the dark Lords that preceded him.

 

"The Force as an instrument to achieve more power" is exactly what being a Sith is all about. Power comes in many forms (political, financial, military, power in/with the Force) and Palpatine by the end pretty much has it all. What Palpatine achieves is the very pinnacle of Sith philosophy.

 

He probably wouldn't ever submit to "the will of the force", but I do think he has high respect for the force, and sees it as more than a mere tool to help him gain power. I believe he is first and foremost a Sith. In episode 3 after finally succeeding, he says, "once more the Sith will rule the galaxy." This tells me that he sees Sith as his identity, and the galaxy as a possession. The word "emperor" probably means nothing more to him than a title signifying his ownership of the galaxy (he might even see the galaxy as a trophy signifying his victory over the Jedi); while Sith is the core of his existence.

Another thing worth noting is how much time and energy he invested over all those years building Anakin's trust and then converting him to become a powerful Sith lord. If all he cared about was keeping the empire running, someone like Dooku would've done the job, he really didn't have to go through all that extra trouble getting Anakin. Only if he wanted a successor as the next Dark Lord of the Sith would it be worth the effort. Anakin was extremely force sensitive, originally (before the injuries) supposed to become even more powerful than Sidious himself (Note how he boasts to Yoda before their duel: "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." If power was the number one thing on his mind, there is no way he would want another person to become more powerful than himself). Anakin was the only one Sidious deemed worthy of succeeding himself. He truly wanted his vast knowledge of the dark side to be passed on.

Also, in his later years as the emperor, he almost seemed to be semi-retired. Even a decision as significant as when and whether to blast Alderaan appeared to be fully made by Tarkin. Sidious only showed up on matters involving the force (in episode 5 to order the execution of Luke before he becomes a Jedi, and in episode 6 to convert Luke). So it seems like political/military matters were just stuff running in the background, while the force is what his energy is focused on.