PT Did Sidious weaken the Jedi order’s connection to the Force?

Mace Windu says that their ability to use the Force has diminished. He says this regarding the fact that they could not sense the creation of the clone army.

Do you think that Sidious was actually doing something to interfere with their connection to the Force? Or is Mace just speculating here, since something slipped by them?

They also refer to the Force being out of balance, and I believe Yoda has a few lines about the dark side clouding everything. This makes me think that Sidious is actually doing something to the Force to unbalance it, thus weakening the Jedi. If I remember right, the Legends novels mentioned the Jedi describing the Force has being more difficult to use, and I think Sidious and Plagueis were said to be using their abilities to corrupt the Force.

On the other hand, Sidious and the other Sith are starting a war, causing suffering throughout the galaxy. All living things are connected to the Force, so perhaps the simple act of spreading warfare and stryfe everywhere is enough to strengthen the dark side.

What do you guys think?

 

I'd say that ^

 

I think it's purposely open to interpretation. Unfortunately, I feel it's left too open ended because it's so super related to the plot. Yoda says, "the shroud of the dark side has fallen" once the Clone War starts. This does imply that whatever was clouding their vision only lasted up until the end of AOTC. Which... just sort of seems like GL wrote himself into a corner... so he just decided the Jedi's vision is weakened for reasons that we never know.

edit/ I accidentally deleted my middle paragraph.

I was saying it would have been neat if the Jedi were having issues seeing into the future because, in the future, their aren't very many Jedi left. They can only see as far into the future as they themselves exist. I wrote that much better before, but it's gone now.

 

You could also look at it like an eclipse blocking the sun.

The 'moon' in this case is the dark-side. So it was kinda Palpatine but not him directly.

For years The Force has been out of balance:

so now to balance again it needs 2 vs 2.

2 Jedi survivors (Obi and Yoda)

2 Sith (Sidious and Vader)

the force knows Obi-Wan and Yoda will die before the dark-side two are defeated:

hence Luke and Leia.

But then...SW cartoons pooped all over that theory, so bleh to that.

 

I feel like he’s saying the shroud has fallen in the sense that it has fallen over everything, rather than it has fallen away.

I really like your interpretation that they have limited ability to see into the future because the Jedi won’t be around much longer. I’ve never thought about it like that before, but it makes sense. It kind of reminds me of God Emperor of Dune, where Leto II can’t see beyond his own death.

 

Two Sith Lords, thousands of Jedi Knights. The Sith make the dark side grow, unbalancing the Force and causing trouble for, again, thousands of Jedi Knights… and the solution is to wipe out all of these thousands of Jedi except two. Also, the clones totally managed to find and kill every single one of them except those two.
And then the Sith rule the galaxy for nineteen years, until they die. By then, there's one Jedi left. The end! And... balance?

I get that people like to think of balance as numerical, but this theory never held up.

 

Ki-Adi-Mundi: "The Sith are extinct! They have been for nearly a millennium. That's why I decided not to get the extended warranty for Anti-Sith Protection."

But seriously, I think you nailed it with this part:

 

I agree. Death by 1000 cuts as all aspects of the plan came together, causing fear, doubt and suffering across the galaxy.

 

Balance:

noun
a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.

verb (used without object), bal·anced, bal·anc·ing.
to have an equality or equivalence in weight, parts, etc.; be in equilibrium: The account doesn't balance. Do these scales balance?
Accounting. to reckon or adjust accounts.

hey, I don't make the definition of words, they are what they are. You can argue with a dictionary if you want to.

 

If we want to talk about definitions, George Lucas and Obi Wan Kenobi both define balance of the force as eliminating the Sith. In the commentary track for ROTJ, he says that Anakin eventually balances the Force by killing Sidious.

 

do you mean Ewan McGregor?

oh I know what you and Lulu Mars were saying,

I'm just pointing out that the literal definition of balance isn't that...

Balance in a sense as is the force would make more sense if it was a Yin/Yang thing

otherwise the force favours the good side...which means then that it doesn't need to succumb to the whims of dark-side use. Which it does, time and time again.

 

I’m referring to Obi Wan’s dialogue from ROTS. He says the chosen one is prophesied to bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith. This matches what Lucas has said about balance of the Force.

The Force basically does favor the light, since Anakin is implied to have been created by the Force to destroy the Sith.

 

oh, your use of ROTJ in your previous post threw me off.

this is true.

this is also true.

Until you get to TROS where he didn't really destroy the Sith, but that's a whole different discussion.

My point, pedantic though it was, is the definition of balance.

Now...if, IF the dark-side was never meant to exist, then the force...having a will of its own would not let it exist. If some dark wizard wanted to shoot force lightning from his finger tips then this omnipotent 'force' would say 'crap no, son'

 

It is a Yin/Yang thing.
The Jedi and the Sith are not the Force, they are people. Ending the Sith doesn't eliminate the dark side any more than the death of humanity will be the end of violence. What it does eliminate is the root of the current problem in the galaxy, which is that the dark side has grown disproportionately strong.
They rule the galaxy! Fear reigns supreme. That is not balance.

The Force doesn't favor the light, it favors balance. As do the Jedi. The dark side is aggressive and as long as people with highly developed minds like ours exist, there will be an excess of aggression, which is why it needs to be countered with deliberate acts of light.


"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

 

I can see that

 

The idea of balance is equilibrium. The Sith basically do things in excess. If you went and cut down some trees and built a house; not that big of deal. If you cut down all of the worlds trees to build as many houses as possible; you've gone too far. That's the Sith. And all the plotting they have been doing in the shadows for the past 1000 years has essentially thrown the force off kilter. And now that they have decided to start acting in the open, a prophesized Chosen One has been found.

My only issue with it is that NONE of this is brought up in the OT and so all of it just feels tacked on for little to no reason.

 

The idea of the Chosen One may have been an afterthought, but the issue of balance certainly wasn't. It's inherent in the struggle between light and dark. The dark side is a natural part of us, that much has been clear since TESB defined it as fear, anger and hate, so it was never about destroying the dark side itself but about not letting it control us.
It was always about balance.

 

Has anyone tried to eat the dark side, rather than destroy it? With lots of gravy.

 

If the Star Wars universe was 100% logical, then yes. It’s a fairy tale in a sci-fi setting, I just don’t scrutinize it that much.

 

Entertainment needs to make sense or else it doesn't have much else going for it. I can't feel tension for Luke Skywalker if he can just suddenly fly around for no reason even though six scene's prior he was hanging on a cliff edge waiting for someone to help him up. That's just bad writing.

 

In the OT, the force was an energy field created by all living things. You could use that energy for good or for evil, but the energy field itself was just static.

The idea of the force itself being able to be knocked out of whack wasn't introduced until TPM in 1999.

 

Except that it had been knocked out of whack since darksiders were in control of the galaxy.

 

there’s a gigantic difference between that and the fact that the Force is a little mysterious in how it works.

 

You can use something for good or evil. But if someone picked up a hammer that had been used to build a house for a nice old lady... and then murdered someone with it... you wouldn't say the hammer is unbalanced.

 

Actually - and this might sound a little out there to some - I believe that everything is energy and that the energy of objects is affected by how they're treated/used. Maybe there's no harm in just leaving a hammer alone after it's been loaded with aggression... but maybe, just maybe, if you pick it up, it will be a little bit harder to keep it steady the first few times you use it.

Food for thought!