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Senate Did Stalin begin the industrialisation of Russia because he foresaw the rise of Hitler?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Iron_lord, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    When does something not have a reason? Are there things that don't have a reason?
     
  2. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 1999
    yes. All of existence
     
    Lord Vivec likes this.
  3. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Subatomic decay occurs in terms of percentages. You have a branching ratio, which gives the statistics of the decay modes for a type of particle. For example, given a population of tau leptons (these are like a fatter cousin of the electron), you can calculate that about 25% of those should decay into one of the two charged pions, the neutral pion, and a tau neutrino, while 10% of them should decay into a charged pion and a tau neutrino only, etc. Now, the list of potential decays obviously follows rules: conservation laws depending on the type of interaction (weak, strong, EM), but why an individual tau lepton decayed along a particular mode follows no observable reason.

    Many other quantum processes also do not have an observable reason.
     
  5. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    Thank you. Does this explanation increase the likelihood that a dictator who whips millions of people into forcibly doing something could be doing it with no motivation?
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    No, but then Darth Guy wasn't talking about just reasons out of context. There's a reason (lol) he had "reason" in quotes, in that he specifically was ridiculing excuses that justify Stalin's brutality, not stating that Stalin's brutality was just randomly inspired on the spot.
     
  7. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
  8. yeurgh

    yeurgh Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 12, 2016
    The OP contains the answer to its question... is this some weird new form of trolling?
     
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  9. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Hitler was assassinated in a Paris movie theater along with much of the Nazi leadership, bringing a swift and unexpected end to the war in Europe.
     
  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Or the motivation could be to modernise a seriously underdeveloped nation so that world socialism had a power base and example of its achievements for all to see?

    I think we just need to accept it was Churchill who best saw the threat of Hitler. Not Stalin, and definitely not Roosevelt.
     
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  11. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 11, 2004
    I never disputed that he had a motivation. Darth Guy seemed to imply that he had no motivation at all, and I disputed that.
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Silly me. I was commenting on the absurd assertions contained in the first post.

    And in the first paragraph of my post I clearly outlined a reason in nuanced terms. I was objecting to it being used to justify the slave labor, population transfers, and mass death caused by incompetence and malice during the Stalin era. The Holocaust had a "reason" too, you know.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That was the assertion that made the least sense to me. "Without Russian industrialization, Operation Barbarossa would have succeeded" I can understand, "Industrialisation was because of Hitler" doesn't make sense timelinewise though. As you said, America, Britain, and Weimar Germany would be more likely to be things Stalin would be worried about in the late 1920s.

    I'd also suggest that it wouldn't just be Stalin - had Stalin died in the 20s and someone else taken charge of Russia (perhaps Trotsky) - they would have been industrialising too.
     
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  14. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    So we had an election, well, kinda, sorta - before you knew it: hello! new world order!

     
  15. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Yes, I realised that after Vivec explained your use of quotes, which I in fairness should have picked up on. The wording by itself made it sound like you think he did it just for kicks, which would be very silly if that was what you suggested.
     
  16. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Darth Guy this is like the second time in a week where it would have paid off if you wore your history training on your sleeve like I wear my physics training.
     
  17. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    No it would not have. Even is a very humble man. If his explanations are not thorough enough to carry the day on his own, draping them in vain and earthly titles will certain be of no benefit.
     
  18. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
  19. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    so sad.
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    This thread should die.
     
  21. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    Probably the first time we'll agree on something Ghost.
     
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  22. SergeyX2017

    SergeyX2017 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2017
    Actually... Not exactly.

    I have studied books from military and NKVD (secret police) officers and politicians from those days, and here is the thing: Stalin wanted to use Hitler.

    Stalin, initially, remember, signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with him; divided Poland with him; and all but allied with him. Soviet Union provided Nazi Germany with materials to build up their military, steel and such, for their planes and tanks; and fuel to power them all. German pilots and tank crew trained at facilities set up in Soviet Union, secretly, away from prying eyes of the French, British, or Americans.

    Why?

    Because Stalin wanted Hitler to raise a mighty army indeed. And use this mighty army to smash to bits the French, the Dutch, Belgians, hopefully the British too. The Germans were to destroy and conquer France and the rest of mainland Europe, and, at least, substantially weaken Britain (Stalin and his advisers did NOT believe Hitler could have successfully invaded the British Islands, but could, at least, inflict crippling losses on them, decimate them enough to render them no longer much of a military threat). At that point, three powerful Red Army groups, which were to be raised and fully armed and prepared, at that point, would attack the Nazis from behind, before they knew what hit them. Group South would roll in through the Balkans. Group North - through Scandinavia. Group Center - through Baltic States, Poland, and onward, into Germany itself.

    The final goal was, quite simply - all of Europe under Communist control. Stalin may have figured that Hitler's own forces would also be quite battered at that time, have fought the rest of the continent; and combined with the surprise factor, would get mowed over fairly quickly, especially if he engages and arms allied pro-Commie groups in the various countries.

    Alas, perhaps Hitler saw through this or whatever happened; but he attacked Stalin first. And the rest is history :)
     
  23. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    Even the Season has a reason.

    Stalin was clever. He wanted Hitler to minimize and reduce the entirety of the West and then sign a detente until the Soviets were prepared to face them.

    It was Machiavellian.
     
  24. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 19, 2015
    I tell you, these are boom times for Hitler studies. Jack Gladney lives!
     
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  25. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001
    Yes boom times for Hitler studies, but people don't study Stalin near enough though.