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Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    He can have that opinion without being at the story group meetings, as any of us can have an opinion about how the story could go a different direction without being at the story group meetings.

    I agree with you, which is why I will never buy into the idea that Kylo’s fall to the Dark Side was Han, Leia or Luke’s fault.

    As far as not thinking about the integrity of the original saga’s story—if the writers are indeed trying to go in the direction that Han Leia or Luke caused Kylo to fall, they certainly did not consider the integrity of the original saga’s characters.

    I’m just hoping we’re given a better reason for Kylo’s fall, a reason that involves his taking full responsibility for his own behavior. FWIW, I don’t think Anakin’s fall was the Jedi’s fault either.
     
  2. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2013
    I admit I disagree at the moment with many decisions made regarding the TFA storyline. But, things are not necessarily for nought. When the first Death Star was destroyed, the Empire still had over 25,000 Star Destroyers, and thousands of systems under their command. What is the First Order left with? Just a Mega Star Destroyer, a dozen or so smaller Destroyers, and maybe some star systems under their command.
    So the sacrifices made in the OT by the characters were worth it. In TFA, there is no evil force ruling most of the settled galaxy.
     
  3. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    It didn't make the OT pointless. It did kinda make the PT pointless. Remove "the prophesy" and everything is fine. You start throwing prophesies around and the expected conclusion payoff becomes more important.

    It really doesn't sound like they had 30 years of peace post Endor. It feels more like they never achieve anything of importance. But Rey will fix all of that. At least until Episode $10
     
  4. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Obviously, you can have any opinion you want. I was reminding you/us that opinion is not fact, because yours was presented as though it was.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    An opinion not presented with “IMO” in front of it does not constitute “presenting an opinion as fact,” nor is not putting “IMO” in front of a post justification for snarking at another poster.

    The_Phantom_Calamari was presenting what he viewed as issues that TFA did not solve. He is under no obligation to assume that those issues were solved. Whether he was correct about Disney “not having enough time” is not the point.
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Presuming the motives of the creators is not really an opinion of the material though. It's a reflection of an opinion but it is still conjecture intended to justify an opinion.
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    The prophecy never said that there would be eternal peace after the Sith were destroyed and the Force was put back into balance. Peace will only last as long as people fight to maintain it. Once they stop, wars begin. That's just how the world works, both in real life and in fiction.
     
  8. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 21, 2015
    I sympathize with JJ and the group a bit..Disney wanted this film rushed out as possible without giving proper time to develop the story. They mostly made the decisions to arguably make the movie...Questionable.

    JJ could only do what Disney wanted him to do in a certain manner. Definitely seemed very pressured from seeing all the interviews with him.
     
  9. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    First off, apologies for mistaking you with The_Phantom_Calamari.

    Second off, IMO is not the only qualifier. "It seems to me", "It appears as though", "it seems like", "I get the impression that", and an infinite number of similar phrases are all equally suitable qualifiers that represent the thoughts more accurately. They invite disagreement and open up the possibility of a fruitful discussion. I've begun doing that more frequently and it makes a world of difference in attitude and thus in communication. Perhaps my sarcasm appeared a bit standoff-ish, but can also be taken as a light nudging.
     
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  10. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Personaly I like the idea, that the heroes of the OT turn out to have flaws, and are human like the rest of us. So, to me Han and Leia don't have to be perfect parents, just because they're were the heroes, or were capable generals. Luke doesn't have to be a great teacher, just because he was the hero, and became the last Jedi. So, while I was content with the happily ever after that ROTJ offered as an ending, depending on how the ST unfolds, I will be even more happy if some depth, further understanding of the Force, and human strengths and weaknesses are added to the proceedings.

    This is what originally made Anakin Skywalker such a compelling character for me (before the PT). Here's this terrible villain, who we learn once was a hero, a good friend, someone with ideals. It's this contrast which made me want to find out more about this character. The same is now true for his son to an extend. We knew Luke to be this heroic, upbeat, somewhat naive kid, who by ROTJ became a Jedi Knight. Now in the trailers we witness Luke in a much darker place. It's this contrast that intrigues me, and makes me want to find out more about how he got to this place, and where his character will go in the future.

    So, TFA contrasts ROTJ in many ways, taking our characters to a much darker place than they were at the end of the last trilogy, and I think it was the best way to go forward with these characters. Some argue Han and Leia regressed, but I really don't see how that works. On the surface maybe, but the Han Solo as presented in TFA is nothing like the character we met in ANH:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So, yes these are darker times, and this is reflected in the emotional state of the classic characters. TLJ in many ways will be Luke and Leia's story, as they were sidelined in TFA, in favour of Han, and it will of course be the story of Kylo and Rey. They represent the Jin and Yang of the ST. One grew up as the son of two heroes, while the other grew up in lonely. Yet it is the former, that turned bad, while the latter appears to have the moral fiber. I think this is an intruiging notion, and a setup for a great story.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The_Phantom_Calamari Ben is 30 years old in TFA. How can Han be his "deadbat dad" in that story? At thirty years old you should be way past depending on your dad.

    At no point is negligence on Han's part established to be the defining factor in Ben's betrayal. Even if Ben thought his father was negligent, if his grandfather's fall is anything to go by, then he is mistaken or using it as an excuse for his own weakness. (e.g. The Jedi did not plot to betray the Republic, like Anakin claimed).

    Why should Luke, by himself and with the unprecedented task of mentoring the grandson of a former sith be more succesful than Yoda and an entire Jedi order at its heigh. Most of the tangible aspects of Jedi culture and how it benefited the previous republic era utterly cleansed from the Galaxy, leaving he and Leia as the only hope. Even the republic is not fully restored.
     
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  12. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015

    Then there's the implicit assumption, that Kylo expressing dissappointent in his father has anything to do with his upbringing. I offered this alternative before, but what if jealousy of a more powerful Force user, say Rey, is what drove Kylo to seek out Snoke. If Kylo has an inferiority complex, which is somewhat implied, when Rey says, he's afraid he won't become as powerful as Darth Vader, it could be, he blames his non-Force sensitive father for his percieved genetic inferiority. It is the legacy of his powerful grand father and uncle that haunt him, and he's afraid his genetic makeup will prevent him from reaching the same level of greatness.
     
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  13. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

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    Jun 16, 2015
    Did TFA make the OT pointless? lol no. By that logic, I guess the existence of Empire and Jedi make the ending of Star Wars pointless.
     
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Where did I ever say I didn't want the heroes of the OT to be human or to have flaws? Please point it out to me. Much obliged, thanks in advance.

    Anyway, the OT is about the heroes learning and growing and becoming better people. Han's arc is specifically that he learns to be a less selfish and more caring person. But according to TFA, he never really fully grew out of his adolescent scoundrel's mindset, and it led to him being an absentee father who emotionally neglected his son, with tragic consequences. Personally, I believe that it's possible for people to truly change and become better people. This is yet another example of George Lucas's absence leading to the infiltration of crass cynicism into the Star Wars mythos.

    The intentions of the people behind the film seem pretty clear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...-kylo-ren-star-wars-force-awakens-documentary

    Han and Leia weren't there for their son.
     
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  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    How does "deadbeat dad" fit that description?
     
  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I don't really see how those are the same things, caring only about yourself and money, and being absent in your child's upbringing due to responsibilities elsewhere, in this case rebuilding the galaxy. So, Han and Leia struggled to find the right balance between these responsibilities. Seems pretty human to me, and hardly cynical, assuming TLJ will be written in the same context. Let's not forget Lucas himself has painted a not so flattering portrait of a mistrusting and dogmatic Jedi order, who wouldn't do anything to help Anakin's mother, and by Anakin's own admission painted Obi-Wan as an overly critical master, who never listens. So, the Jedi order were never portrayed as perfect either.

    I also find these criticisms a bit odd, given you've defended Anakin's murderous behaviour, going so far as describing him as a good person who's done some bad things. Why don't you give Han and Leia the same courtesy? Surely their sins aren't as bad as Anakin's? Why is Anakin still considered heroic and a good person, and Han relegated to just being a deadbeat dad? Seems like you're applying a double standard here. We should all symphatise with poor murderous Anakin, but Han and Leia being absent is some grievous sin. Shouldn't we sympathise with Han and Leia, who payed a terrible price for their absence, despite also being heroes of the Rebellion, and buiders of the new Republic? In the end Han sacrificed his life in hopes of saving his son. If Anakin can be a good heroic person who's done some bad things, surely Han and Leia are good heroic people, who have made some mistakes in their lifes.
     
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  17. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    As I've said here and other places the really bizarre thing about this ST storyline is that it in essence undermines the spirit if not exactly the explicit story of the OT.

    The victories in the OT still happened and held for many years then the ST story reverses many aspects for them back to a pre-OT state before TFA begins at which point it then follows many of the basics of the OT itself in the story.

    The PT has the success of the Sith and Empire and the failure of the Jedi and the Republic. The OT picks up on that story thread.

    The thematic starting point for the ST based off of the connections between the first two trilogies is more logically starting where things are relatively good ie the Sith and Empire are long gone the Jedi and Republic are around in some form and the trio are all in situations that were set up from ROTJ. Luke has found a new Jedi Order. Leia is a Jedi. She and Han are married and have children (as old as late twenties to as young as early teens most likely).

    From that point there are myriad possibilities of how things can go in terms of enemies.

    Even in this scenario you can still use a Snoke or First Order from the unknown regions etc.

    The scenario the back canon has is that Leia doesn't become a Jedi but goes into politics and Han is a part time husband who goes off racing. They aren't divorced but have a long distance relationship like an unmarried couple and Ben is with one or the other and then they end up shuttling him off to uncle Luke to train and then neither of them see him much it seems.

    The impression is that they were lousy parents and since Ben was born not too long after ROTJ (plus they had no other kids) then parenting wasn't a real interest for either of them.

    I mean compare that to what Anakin and Padme would have been as parents to Luke and Leia if that would have happened.

    In TFA they blame Snoke so maybe it'll turn out that everything was great and that Snoke turned Ben's mind and it had little to do with them.
     
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  18. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

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    Aug 14, 2002
    Not the whole OT, no.

    It stifles and u-turns the progress of the three main characters: TFA returns Han to being a smuggler, Leia to being a Rebel / Resistance leader, and Luke once again to being a moisture farmer. By the looks of Ach-too, he was a bit too successful, if you ask me.

    TFA totally undermined the PT, though.

    Three films worth of seeing the progression from civilian to Jedi youngling to Padawan, Knight and Master, thrown into a thematic woodchipper by showing an ex-stormtrooper and a rappelling waif owning someone trained by Luke and Snoke.
     
  19. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    Mmm, the PT which showed a 9 year old boy destroy a droid control ship, saw Jango Fett, a non-Force user, give Obi-Wan a run for his money, and three jedi masters being dispatched in three seconds by Sidious moving as slow as my grandmother. We've been down this road before, but Kylo Ren was seriously injured and emotionally compromised. His defeat seems more believable to me, than the way those three Jedi masters in their prime were dispatched so easily, with a bunch of moves so slow any novice could have anticipated them.
     
  20. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Yeah, it required a man who was essentially a walking arsenal in order to draw an experienced Jedi Knight to a stalemate.
     
  21. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015

    Yeah, and the former stormtrooper trained from birth for combat was ultimately dispatched by a wounded Kylo Ren. So, I don't see your problem with Finn putting up a fight against a not fully trained Kylo, if you're willing to accept Jango can fight a healthy experienced Jedi Knight to a stalemate.
     
  22. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 26, 2009
    Not pointless just bittersweet. Family problems aren't resolved, but inherited.
     
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  23. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

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    Aug 14, 2002
    Jango was wearing or holding two Westar pistols, wrist-launched lariat, mini rockets, the rocket on his back, and had his son operating Slave One's twin Borstel turbolasers.

    Finn had a lightsabre, which he had not been trained on.

    The fact that Fett's arsenal took more than three times as many words to spell out, should be enough for an observer not to equate the two.

    The Kylo defeat was a ******* travesty for his character arc in the first instalment in a trilogy, and was a blatant attack on the PT, and the very concept of jedi, and the Real Life concept that education and training makes you good at things.

    I'm a black belt. There are circumstances that I can prevail. You give me an epee and pitch me up against a mopey Zorro, injured or not, I expect to die; or at least get Force-thrown against trees - as wounded Kylo did once to Rey - until I'm down.

    Shot Kylo had no need to engage either hero in physical combat. He had the Force, and there was a cliff nearby.
     
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  24. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    [face_rofl]

    If Lucas had done what TFA did and TFA did what Lucas did I would guess that very likely your views would be opposite of that right now.

    Not sure what your point is in that Jango Fett a non-Force user had his armor and was a seasoned warrior. Non-Force user Finn got his head handed to him by a run of the mill Stormtrooper then faired better against Kylo Ren which was utterly ludicrous. With Rey it makes some modicum of sense at least but Finn is useless to him and so he should have dispatched him in 3 seconds or less.

    Clearly the problem for those Jedi was that they were Masters not novices! :D

    I'm not sure how it was an "attack" on the PT. Star Wars itself I would say because training is actually an important in I-VI and apparently not in TFA.

    Even with all the circumstances going on with Kylo Ren he's still up against a non-Force used and a neophyte in Rey who apparently with no training can now repel any Force attack (except the one he used moments earlier!).

    I never really expected things from JJ to really hold together that well enough to make sense on a character or story basis so TFA had no surprises there.
     
  25. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015

    Finn was trained to use a lightsaber like weapon, in case you hadn't noticed. So, why did Obi-Wan not just use the Force on Jango, rather than attack him with a dropkick, and run for his lightsaber when that failed? Even after Jango loses his jetpack, Obi-Wan still runs towards him to kick him off the platform, rather than toss his *** in the water with the Force. Double standards anyone?

    Nobody who's shot in the gut with a high powered rifle would be able to put up much of a fight, and I mean no one. The drop in blood pressure due to blood loss alone would be enough to weaken you physically, make you dizzy, and cause you to lose cognitive functions, leading to poor judgement. Your ability to function would deteriorate rapidly, so while performing a Force push would still work when you're somewhat clear, as the fight progresses you might not even consider the option, and become pretty disorientated. That's real life for you, not the fairy tale you've just painted.

    So, Kylo had every reason to act irrationally, what's Obi-Wan's reason, aside from plot convenience?