main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    You make excellent points.

    However, it is easy for me to offer such counterpoints, as the director made absolutely no attempt to show that the bowcaster round had any effect, apart from Kylo punching himself in the gut.

    Despite all that you mentioned, Kylo made it off the classic bridge with no railings, navigated his way out of Starkiller Base, crossed that big expanse from the base to the woods atop the cliff, apparently got there ahead of the able-bodied Rey and Finn.

    C'Boath on a bike, he should have sat on the nearest chair, called for medical assistance, and sent some troops after the pair!
     
  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I suggest you watch the fight again, as there are five indicators of his condition:

    1) Like you said, he's punching himself.
    2) We see a pool of blood in the snow.
    3) He's seen pumping himself up to get the adrenaline flowing during his short fight with Finn.
    4) He makes mistakes, such as getting tagged by Finn in their short scuffle, further deteriorating his condition.
    5) He's sweating like a dog, a classic indicator of massive blood loss.

    As far as getting ahead of Finn and Rey, that's logical, considering the two heroes had to climb down a ladder of 200 feet, while Kylo was at ground level.
     
    redxavier, TCF-1138 and Martoto77 like this.
  3. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    When was it stated that Finn was in any way trained in a weapon only Kylo carries? What practical purpose would an army of stormtroopers trained to use an extinct weapon be? Yes, there's those batons, but they have a very different style of combat.
     
    Sith-I-5 likes this.
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Fin picking up the saber to defend himself and Rey makes the OT pointless?
     
  5. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Which is why Finn only managed to last a minute or two against a wounded Kylo. Maybe you didn't notice, but Finn didn't really stand a chance, even though Kylo was injured. The training with those batons at least gave Finn the confidence to attempt to stop Kylo, and he was able to put up a better fight than the average Joe. It also gave Rey the time to catch her breath, and by the time she faced Kylo, he had weakened considerably, due to his wounds and the fact that he had spent much of his remaining energy beating Finn.
     
  6. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    I can pick up a saber.

    Without checking Youtube videos for parry and blocking ideas, I have no hope of knowing what way to hold it, in such a way to block whichever angle Mr Ren's strike is going to come in from. And without some level of training, I should not be able to make the split second decision-making that lets me survive past the first exchange, and then go onto hit the opponent. Finn got a hit in.

    It is why in MMA, grapplers try to take boxers and kickers to the ground, so that they can bring their own training to bear.

    Fin picking up the saber to defend himself and Rey makes the OT pointless?

    Fin surviving as long as he did, against a trained opponent, and getting a hit in, to Kylo's face; and Rey, with no on-screen training or background, besting him, yes, tells the audience, no, you don't need to spend your toddler years in a hall with Yoda, a blast shield over your face, and a low-powered lightsabre; then years of training to become a padawan; then get selected by a Master; then get up to the rank of Jedi Knight.

    No. Drokk that.

    No. Pick up the saber. Go at it, Hoss.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    But Ren was nursing a wound while he was toying with him. Finn was doing his best. And Finn lost when Kylo eventually stopped faffing about in spite of his injury.


    Even if they weren't, it wouldn't make the OT pointless. At the very worst it does not satisfy some preconceived notions extrapolated from the minuscule amount of training that is demonstrated in the movies to full chasms created by the leaps in the timeline between certain movies, and the Jedi order's policy of training and indoctrinating people from birth until late into their adolescence.


    It's drama. Not a parlour game, where you pull out the higher value card and instantly win. "Whoops. 5 years training to zero. I win that hand."
     
    DrDre likes this.
  8. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    That is actually quite a good comparison.

    On a visual tech level though, this Taliban of yours is using a variation of the aircraft that the Nazis were wielding back during WW2, and the Allies' tech has not upgraded in the slightest.

    At least in the Prequels, we could see thematic precursors to the Blockade Runners, the X-Wings, and the TIE-series. TFA just has X-Wings and TIE fighters again, after three standard decades.
     
    Seeker Of The Whills likes this.
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    What's a "thematic precursor" to a Blockader Runner?

    Why wouldn't the First Order, bent on the restoration of Imperial rule and tyranny, not adopt the hardware of that regime? Why would the marginal Resistance, which is trapped in the continuing struggle to oppose these Imperialists while the new Republic stays out of it, have new equipment and go out of their way to adopt new aesthetic?
     
  10. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    The ship that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan take to the Naboo blockade.


    At the risk of straying into TFA is a copy of ANH territory, why didn't the First Order take any of ESB's TIE Bombers, or ROTJ's TIE Interceptors?

    The Interceptors were awesome at taking down Rebel X-Wings!

    Or are the Bombers and Interceptors less Imperial than their weaker predecessors?

    And for the Resistance side, there are plenty of other starfighters out there, at least six introduced in the Prequels alone, plus one or two more in the games of the Prequels, plus the B-Wing and A-Wing of ROTJ.

    The A-Wings were awesome at taking down TIE fighters!



    EDIT: An error has been detected. Whoops.

    Not the OT. The PT.

    Other elements of TFA, mess with the OT.
     
    Visivious Drakarn likes this.
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That's not even thematic. That's a vaguely approximate design, which was not exactly distinctive even in 1977.

    Why must all designs seen in the OT be represented in the First Order? The argument seems to be that they should comprehensively copy or transpose Imperial designs or not at all [face_dunno] (huh?)

    This still has nothing to do with the OT being pointless.
     
  12. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Again, all of this would be true, if Kylo were in good condition. However, the film clearly shows, he's not. It makes a point of showing Rey can handle herself in a fight. It makes a point of showing us Rey has a secret history, which may or may not have involved her being trained as a child. She was hidden for a reason, though. It makes a point of telling us Kylo has not yet completed his training. It makes a point of showing the power of Chewie's bowcaster. It makes a point of showing Kylo get hit by the bowcaster. It makes a point of showing Kylo bleeding, sweating, and punching himself. It makes a point of showing he's emotionally compromised. This was all the film makers intention. Now unless you're arguing a severely wounded Jedi cannot be beaten, which seems inconsistent with the fact that Jango Fett fought a healthy Obi-Wan to a draw without any Force powers whatsoever, I really don't see why you keep beating a dead horse.
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  13. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Yeah, I know I am beating a dead horse. I keep telling myself not to engage.

    But then that red alert pops up...
     
    DrDre likes this.
  14. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I know the feeling...
     
    Sith-I-5 likes this.
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That little red flag gives people nightmares, I'm told.
     
    Tosche_Station and DrDre like this.
  16. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Fett took out Jedi Council Member and Master Coleman Trebor with a mere handful of shots with just one pistol.
    [​IMG]
     
    Senator Wan, DrDre and Martoto77 like this.
  17. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Now that you mention it, the tech in TFA is even behind ANH. No Y-Wings, no A-Wings, no B-Wings. Where did all of those go? The Rebellion needed those and multiple capital ships to take down Death Star II, but the Rebellion in TFA needs only a handful of X-Wings to take down Death Star III which is approximately a gazillion times biggerrer and more powerfuller. It can shoot many uberlasers all at once!
     
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    The resistance isn't the Alliance.
     
  19. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    If they are supposed to be weaker than they were in the OT (despite having the benefit of the New Republic), how were they able to take down Death Star III with far fewer and less powerful ships? I say inconsistency caused by bad writing.
     
    Visivious Drakarn likes this.
  20. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    The how is in the film. Finn, Han and Chewie force Phasma to disable the shield, then they detonate a bunch of well placed bombs, then the X-wing pilots do the rest.
    I know, it seems ridiculously easy, but would it have seemed as ridiculously easy if Starkiller Base had been the size of a star destroyer? I think not.
    My point is: Size matters not. Just because SKB is huge, it doesn't have to be hugely difficult to take out.
     
    Martoto77 and Iron_lord like this.
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    They don't have official support of the Republic. I would have preferred it if the relationship was more strongly conveyed, but the film doesn't say they are well supported then not well supported and back again. The dialogue from Hux shows how any support for the resistance is considered a betrayal of whatever peace settlement exists between the New Republic and the FO.

    They were aided by pinpoint, first hand intelligence from an FO defector (an original thing in Star Wars movies) and the return to form of a once great Rebel General with close personal involvement with one of the bad guys to help them.


    They even have General Solo pour scorn over concerns about its size. So the writing actually tells us what's important and what's not then fulfills those ideas.
     
    Lulu Mars and Iron_lord like this.
  22. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    It's bad writing to have the underdog win? There goes practically every story ever told.

    The storytelling reason is that it's a surgical strike on a vulnerablility. The tactic doesn't need capital ships or a wide variety of ships to complete, so why bring them? They're just going to get shot at. The Endor strategy was that the rebels brought big ships to provide cover for the fighters until they could go inside the superstructure of the DS2 and hit the vulnerable parts (which only the fighters could do). They were not expecting the Imperial Fleet to be there, and they were not expecting the DS2 to be operational. This was a last ditch effort of the rebels throwing everything they could before another superweapon was completed that rendered everything they had done up to that point moot.

    Bringing only X-wings rather than a mix of fighters doesn't put the Resistance "behind" the alliance in technology. That seems a spurious kind of logic. To me, the reason to give the Resistance a mix of ships is to imply that the Resistance is a mix, an alliance if you will, of various different groups coming together. That was the Rebel Alliance though, and it isn't what the storytellers are showing with the Resistance. Having only X-wings says things about the origins, make up and capabilites of the Resistance. They don't have all the tools of war but just a squadron of X-wings. What does that say about them? That they're a severely under-powered force shows that they're a cause which isn't being taken seriously. That's a very big statement to make. That all their fighters are X-wings suggests that these all came from the same source, and we can imagine then that this was a gift from someone in the Republic and probably only because Leia was the one asking. I get the impression that the Resistance is entirely based around Leia - these are her people and this is her cause. And while she has the support of the Republic, it seems trivial and minimal (which is why ultimately she needs Luke back on team).

    And yet the irony is that this tepid support from the Republic is the justification the First Order are using to launch their Pearl Harbour-style attack.

    I notice that a lot of people just think the Reistance is a Rebel Alliance 2.0, mostly on the basis that their names both begin with R and Leia is involved with them, but they seem to miss the nuance and what makes them thematically and functionally different.
     
    Senator Wan, DrDre, Lulu Mars and 2 others like this.
  23. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Exactly! It's a superficial criticism fed by wanting to push a narritive that TFA resets the galaxy to ANH 2.0. The same is true for the FO. They are a group of extremists who up until recently were hiding in the unknown regions, wanting to restore a galactic order. The FO isn't the Empire controlling the entire galaxy anymore than Kylo Ren is Darth Vader. They want to be, but that does not make it so. The FO is like the Nazi stormtroopers in the wake of Imperial Germany's defeat during WWI. These bullies were terrorizing the German streets hoping to subvert the democratic government, just like the FO is doing to the new Republic.
     
  24. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2013
    The size is not the point; the importance is. Starkiller is their most powerful, most important weapon and it's so easily destroyed. Even Kylo's stardestroyer conveniently went away during the attack! Upon that, the Rebels... Sorry, Resistance learns about it and destroys it just several hours later.
     
  25. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    ...because Han managed to pull out of hyperspace at exactly the right moment. That’s got to be one in a million. If he hadn’t, the Resistance would’ve been vaporized.
    It’s the same with Luke’s one-in-a-million shot taking out the Death Star. One next to impossible move makes all the difference.

    This “Rebels... sorry, Resistance” joke, BTW, is getting reeeally old. It’s not as offensive as “Luca$”, but it does bring it to mind...
    Just sayin’.