PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Them knowing he was a Sith and then knowing his Sith identity (Darth Maul) are two different things. The Jedi definitely identified him as a Sith as Qui-Gon concluded earlier. But them knowing his name is information that had to come from some sort of record or the Neimoidians themselves.

 

There was no evidence of him being a Sith. The only difference now is that Qui-Gon was dead and they instead were hearing a story from a padawan instead of a Jedi Master.

 

I agree. Gunray was the Jedi's only lead to the mysterious second Sith Lord. Since no one was in danger (like the kids were in with Cad Bane) they had not reason to risk destroying the mind of their only lead.

 

I wonder if they thought Maul was the Master or apprentice.

 

No. If it was a matter of hearsay, then it would be the same as earlier and Mace wouldn't have stated "there is no doubt".

 

As per Mace and Yoda's dialogue at the end of TPM, they genuinely don't know.

Towards the end of TCW it's revealed that the Jedi aren't even sure if Dooku is the master or the apprentice. They think Ventress could be the second Sith.

 

The number of Jedi isn't an issue. Especially if this guy is just a wannabe and not the real deal. Four Jedi went after Sidious and none of them survived.

If I put on a hockey mask and carry a machete, does that make me Jason Voorhees? No, it doesn't. Is Kylo Ren a Sith just because he carries a red Lightsaber and wears black? No, because he isn't a Sith.

Qui-gon's testimony is that he thinks that he was attacked by a Sith. He has no proof other than conjecture. Obi-wan and Anakin providing additional proof from the battle, with Qui-gon's death as the added incentive, was sufficient.

 

Again, what was the evidence? According to the film the only reason there is no doubt is because Qui-Gon is dead. Similarly to how a drunk driver thinks there is no way they could be impaired until they actually kill someone. It's called hindsight.

Of course it is. In combat the more numbers you have the more likely you are to win.

What proof?

 

Qui-Gon being killed by someone doesn't make that someone a Sith Lord by default. They probably watched recordings, examined his ship, lightsaber, etc... There are many valid possibilities. Use your imagination.

 

I mean, Darth Maul literally had Sith tattoos on his face.

 

Ah yes, just make up evidence that isn't there to serve you're narrative. Indeed.

He had the same tattoos when he confronted Qui-Gon, they didn't believe him then.

In their defense of the tattoos; I believe TCW re-canonized those tattoos as Nightsister tats rather than Sith.

 

We do see in Son of Dathomir that Maul's ship was recovered by Sidious and was still being used by the Sith during the Clone Wars. Knowing Sidious's strong ties to Naboo and the evidence we see in Shadow Warrior of a long-present Sith influence on that world, it's not unbelievable that Sidious could have made the Scimitar vanish before the Jedi had a chance to examine it.

 

I'd say it's not that they didn't believe in them. Some did, others didn't. But evidence was needed regardless.

I mentioned the ship as a mere possibility. Let's go with recordings then, or the cut lightsaber.

 

Let's go with Qui-Gon already told them his attacker had a Sith lightsaber, which was probably one of the myriad of factors why he concluded it was a Sith Lord. What are these recordings??

 

To be fair, Ventress, Kylo, and a myriad of others have red lightsabers but aren’t officially Sith Lords. How does Maul having a red lightsaber denote him being a Sith. He could’ve just been a Dark Side user.

To officially be a Sith, you have to be declared apprentice by an actual Sith Lord.

 

Still, Ventress has a red lightsaber because she had Sith training under Tyranus.

 

There were recordings though!

 

Yes, I do not think it's a stretch to believe the palace and generator room had recording cameras or whatever the Star Wars equivalent is.

 

It's also probably not a stretch to believe that invading Corporate tyrants discussing super secret plans with the most diabolical force of evil in the galaxy might turn those cameras off.

 

The proof is that Darth Maul fought two Jedi and killed one with a Lightsaber and the Force. Something normal people cannot do and is very difficult for lesser Force users. Let me revisit my Jason Voorhees analogy. In the fifth film, Sheriff Tucker concludes that the recent spat of murders in his county was the work of Jason Voorhees, but the mayor doubts this as Jason was killed by Tommy Jarvis and was said to have been cremated. The mayor demands a live suspect or he will fire Tucker. It turns out that both were right as it was a Jason styled copy cat murderer. Later on, Sheriff Garris is told that Jason was accidentally revived by Tommy Jarvis, but he dismisses the notion as the ravings of a disturbed man. It isn't until he's told that a murder took place at a point in time when Tommy was with a reliable witness and thereby creating an alibi, that he starts to doubt his beliefs and is finally given proof after shooting the real deal eight times. Twice with a shotgun and six times with a thirty eight, with the last round hitting him in the head.

In this case, Maul might be a wannabe. He can only be proven to be one through actions that only a Sith Lord could accomplish.

More likely, but not always. Especially if your opponent is better than you.

Their testimony and the dead Jedi Master who was killed by a Lightsaber and not a blaster.

But she was not a Sith. Nor was Savage Opress. Maul was excommunicated. The Inquisitors aren't Sith either. Nor is Kylo Ren and Snoke. Carrying a red Lightsaber alone doesn't make you a Sith. It just means you're trained in the ways of the Force like a Jedi and a Sith. Remember, the Mandalorian government didn't consider Jango a Mandalorian either. Just a wannabe wearing the trappings of a Mando warrior.

The cameras would have to be on for Maul to know where the strike team were, in order to intercept them in time. Same with the Droidekas that arrive after the duel begins.

 

Yeah, he already almost killed Qui-GOn on Naboo. Qui-Gon had to jump onto a moving ship to escape. This was reported to the Council.

Huh? What does this mean and why is it relevant?

The same Jedi Master who told them earlier he was almost killed by a guy with a lightsaber not a blaster?

Ah of course. Because none of the droids in the hangar have a radio and Darth Maul doesn't have the Force.
~sarcasm.

 

About Nute,

Did the jedi have reason to question him?
Yes!
They do conclude that Maul was indeed a sith, more on that later.
And it is obvious that the TF is working with them.
Did they?
The films don't say.
So either they tried but Nute kept silent. Or Palpatine was able to keep them from doing this.
Or they didn't think about it.
But given that this matter was important and the Jedi was after information and Nute was a gold mine of just that.
Then I think the film could have spent a line or two on this issue.
If you want the Jedi to still be in the dark, mention that Nute mysteriously "died" while in custody.
So the Jedi are still at square one.

About Maul and how many the Jedi send etc.
The logic that some use to justify just two Jedi is really odd.
The Jedi think that if Maul is not a Sith and just some guy, two Jedi can handle him.
So I would guess this means if Maul IS a Sith then those two jedi are dead.
That is rather moronic by the Jedi, if Maul is not a sith, then no worries.
If he is, then they just sent two jedi to their deaths for no reason.
So send 4-5 jedi instead.

If some argue that two Jedi could deal with a sith as well, then that argument renders the above reason invalid.
Two jedi can deal with all enemies, sith or no sith.
Not to mention the little fact about the military blockad around Maboo plus the big TF army that this "dark warrior" can use since he is obviously in league with the TF.
So more than two jedi would have been prudent in any case.
And since there seemed to be nothing that required the Jedi's attention elsewhere, they had people to spare.
But the plot needs just two, so only two go.

As for the issue about there being other force users, other than Jedi or sith.
The PT films never establishes that there are.
But say that there are other dark siders out there and they also use red ligthsabers.
If so, why did Qui-Gon make the leap that Maul was a sith?
If all he knows that he is trained to use the Force and has a red lightsaber.
Then concluding that he was a sith, the one group of dark-siders that are NOT around anymore, instead of the several other groups that are. That reasoning makes little sense.
If there was something that separated Maul as a sith, as opposed to just some dark side user, what was that?

And lastly, why did the Jedi go from, "this guy might be a sith", to "he was a sith"?
The only new information that we know they have is that he killed Qui-Gon.
Sure, the logic of "Only a sith can kill a Jedi master" would explain that.
But that makes the jedi choice of just two Jedi rather stupid.

If they investigated his ship, questioned Nute or whatever, say something. It would take a few seconds.
Or have Maul being a sith, yes or no, not the issue. The Jedi send people to apprehend him so they can learn more about him, his plans and what the sith are doing.
If he is sith is never in doubt.
Simple.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Indeed. But we are not talking about Sidious. We are talking about Maul.

Never said they were. I said they only had red lightsabers because they underwent Sith training from a Sith Lord.

 

And is not proof because he was caught by surprise by someone who wasn't an actual Sith, in their view.

Because four of the best Jedi Masters took on Palpatine and he killed three of them in fifteen seconds. Large numbers aren't always an indicator of a decisive outcome in favor of the larger group.

Someone who was caught by surprise by someone who could have been nothing more than a novice with a small bit of training and not a seasoned Sith Lord, capable of killing Jedi Knights.

The Force alone isn't enough, otherwise, Vader would have captured Luke on Hoth instead of luring him to Bespin.

Or imply that Dooku questioned Nute and then lied to the Council about his findings.

Or two Jedi are capable of killing or capturing Maul, then two is sufficient. Which it was in the end. There's no guarantee that two Jedi will die automatically, otherwise, there wouldn't have been a Jedi survivor. I mean, they send Luke out to kill two Sith Lords in the OT. How is that a guarantee that he'll live for more than five seconds. Especially being inexperienced as he is.

The conclusion was due to Anakin, who was born without a father and has a high concentration of Midichlorians which signals that he might be the Chosen One and thus the Sith weren't as extinct as they've always believed. Qui-gon tells that Council about Maul first and then about Anakin.

 

Maul seems to have a pretty good understanding of technology. Tough to picture him making a goofball move like discussing Sith plans on camera.

They never said that.

You're literally using an example of the larger group winning; until Anakin turned and the Sith had the larger group.

No. They dueled for about a minute with Qui-Gon barely holding his own; having to retreat to survive. No "novice" could do this to a Jedi Master. In fact Qui-Gon specified to the Council that Maul was "well trained in the Jedi arts."

The Force isn't enough for what? How is the OT relevant to this discussion?

No "they" didn't. Yoda told him he needed to confront Vader, while Obi-Wan implied that he needed to be willing to kill Vader. I don't think they intended for him to surrender himself to the Empire.