PT Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Yeah, that guy was Darth Maul. So he witnessed it.
    1. He defeats one Jedi in single combat, then loses to another. He specifically tried to split them up because he couldn't defeat them together.

    2. Dooku defeated a knight and a padawan. When he was met with his equal, a Jedi Master, he had to retreat.

    3. Sidious lost to Windu until Anakin turned to his side and he had the advantage of numbers.

    4. These aren't Jedi.

    So yeah, you proved my point, thanks.


    Not according to the films. But you should write a fanfic about them meeting at a corner store in the lower city.


    But usually films do this with a REASON. The Jedi just send two Jedi, just because.
    @Samuel Vimes has said this better than me in the past but I'll give it a try:
    - Chancellor kidnapped? Send two Jedi.
    - Assassination attempt? Send two Jedi
    - Trade dispute? Send two Jedi
    - Investigate assassination attempt? Send one Jedi.
    - Guard a Senator? Send one Jedi.
    - Track down and capture a General with an army of droids? Send one Jedi.
    - Save two Jedi from public execution. SEND 200 JEDI.
    - Confront a Sith Lord backed by a corporate army while defending a small child and the monarch of the planet? Send two Jedi.
    Ah of course. The old "LOOK OVER THERE!" defense. Intelligent.
    Another deflection. Wow. I hope you're a lawyer, you should monetize this skill.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
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  2. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    They weren't sure. In The Phantom Menace, Mace Windu himself confirms this. Later on during the Clone Wars, Mace (amusingly) theorizes to Palpatine that Dooku was the master and Maul was the apprentice in the Son of Dathomir comic.
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    He witnessed a guy with a Lightsaber. He doesn't know who or what he was. That's why doesn't say, "That was a Sith" the same way that he believed that Qui-gon was a Jedi because he saw his Lightsaber.

    He did defeat them. Obi-wan was beaten. He lost the fight. Maul was powerful enough to defeat Obi-wan in battle.

    Dooku still won the fight because the war began and he defeated two Jedi.

    Sidious didn't lose as the fight wasn't over. He just faked being defeated.

    Nice dodge, but they're Force users. All of them couldn't be an ex-Jedi and a Jedi Padawan Learner.

    I didn't stutter. There are two Jedi in TESB and ROTJ. Yoda and Luke. Yoda dies, Luke becomes the last Jedi.

    I'm sorry, where is it said that they have to have a building to conduct a Council meeting. And you accuse me of making **** up. Maybe if you stopped trying to be funny and have a serious discussion, you'd understand.
  4. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    George Lucas: "Mace overpowers Palpatine."
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  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Yeah that guy was Darth Maul. So he witnessed it. I feel like I've said this before.

    That's funny. Because one guy was at a party the next day and the other guy was cut in two peices at the bottom of a hole.


    In swordmanship the fight is over when one fighter has a blade at his neck...and begs for mercy.

    But they are not JEDI.

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  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    There's no Jedi Council during the OT bcs there's no formal Jedi Order.
  7. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    Yoda and Obi-Wan?
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    Yoda & Obi-Wan's ghost constitute a Council? The Council was a formal body that ran the affairs of the Order when they had Knights working throughout the galaxy.
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    No one on the Council doubts that there was a guy running around with a Lightsaber. What was in doubt was if he was a Sith. Again, there's hundreds of discarded Lightsabers out there in the galaxy. Anyone could find and use one to pretend to be a Jedi or a Sith.

    Maul was defeated because he chose to be arrogant and not finish Obi-wan off. Maul still won the fight. He out fought and bested two Jedi. As to Dooku, yes, he won, because he got away and started the war. Yoda even says that they didn't win the Battle of Geonosis, the Sith did.

    You do know that Palpatine was faking being weak?

    But according to you, superior numbers should be enough. So which is it?

    It doesn't say anything about needing a building. What it does say is this...

    The Council was composed of five permanent members who accepted a lifetime commitment to it. In addition, four long-term members served until they chose to step down, and the limited-term members sat on the Council for specified terms.

    Yes, they would constitute a Council. The affair of the Order was whether or not Luke should be trained. They don't need a Temple or a dozen Jedi to need a Council.
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Steph Curry could "fake" being a bad shooter. If the other team has more points he still loses.

    But not anyone could track and then duel a Jedi to a standstill...bristling with Sith tattoos.

    Ah, I see you've given up on the outright lie that Maul won the battle. Congratulations, welcome to reality. This is a big moment for you.

    It's Jedi. We're talking about Jedi. In your defense, perhaps by that time Rey could be considered a Jedi.

    So Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't the Jedi Council. So that's that.
  11. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    I feel like Yoda and Obi-Wan realized the Jedi had to move beyond such bureaucracy. Was the fate of the Jedi balanced on the edge of a knife? Yes, but they weren't gone yet. One Jedi is enough to keep the Order alive, just like one Sith can keep that Order alive IMO
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    First, a general comment about films doing "stupid" things and suspension of disbelief.

    In moderation I can accept narrative convenience and have suspension of disbelief.
    Like Luke just happen to land next to Yoda on Dagobah or that Qui-Gon just happened to pick the one shop where Anakin works.
    Those are fine.

    But if a story goes too far with stacking more and more implausible events on top of each other, then the writing becomes contrived and it takes me out of the story.

    Ex. the technobabble of Star Trek.
    In moderation, I am often fine with it. And some actors are better than others in saying it.
    But when it becomes word-sallad, like "We need to re-align our quantum-banna-trapeze-wingnuts."
    Then it becomes obvious BS.
    And stories with a Technobabble problem and with a Technobabble solution, that is lazy writing.
    It is a story with a BS BS problem and a BS BS BS solution.

    In more than one instance, the PT have contrived writing, where events happens or character do things for no other reason than the Plot demands it.
    No attempt is made to explain or justify it, it just does.

    Except that many times in the OT, the small group is explained or justified, like the rebels having very limited resources or that sneaking in through the shield works better with a small group and not a big army.

    Yes you did because Qui-Gon/The Jedi ARE interfering with the TF plans.
    They don't have to LEAD in order for that to happen.
    The TF captured Padme and wanted to force her to sign a treaty, Qui-Gon INTERFERED in that plan.

    Again you are stuck on the "Lead army" nonsense.
    You can INTERFERE in many more ways than that.
    Also, Intercede;
    So this is talking about negotiating, mediating, etc.
    That is more narrow than just Interfering.
    So the Jedi are telling Qui-Gon to not negotiate or mediate until they have senate ok.
    They are NOT telling that he can't interfere.
    So yes, you made all this up.

    Apparently I am not the only one who watched the film, so too did the Jedi.
    So you are agreeing with me, the Jedi's action only make sense if you assume that they saw the film/read the script.
    Glad that is settled.

    The jedi just assume that the 14-year old, with no combat experience and no tactical training, must have a plan and that this plan must work?
    No questions, no nothing?
    Astonishing, whenever I think the Jedi have hit rock-bottom in their stupidity, you come along and show that they are actually dumber.
    What if her plan was to suicide herself? Or to accept defeat and join her people in captivity?
    The Jedi would have been screwed then.

    Based on what the Jedi KNOW, Padme has only a handful of guards and is facing a military blockade, a big droid army and a possible sith lord.
    And they think two jedi can deal with all that AND protect the queen and look after a nine year old boy?

    Again, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were there in the hope that Maul would show so their plan was always to let Padme fend for herself if Maul appeared.

    "If", "could", sorry you are making this up.
    The STATED reason why the Jedi go back is Maul, that's it.
    No Maul and the jedi would most likely let Padme go alone.

    1) See the start of my post.
    2) The "Hey, look over there!" argument is not a compelling argument.
    3) I have issues with the ST, that Holdo not telling anyone of her plan didn't make sense, that the FO didn't call for any ships to cut off the Resistance ships, SKB and how quickly the resistance figured out how to blow it up, or that Finn and Rosa figure out the "impossible" tracking tech extremely fast.

    About the OT,
    Take ANH and the DS attack.
    The rebels used 30 fighters and seemed to accept anyone with even some piloting knowledge, hence why Luke was allowed to join.
    So it seems that they used most if not all the fighters that they had.
    What about capital ships? Well the DS briefing makes it clear that the DS's defenses are designed to deal with that but not small fighters. So a reason is given why the rebels don't use capital ships.
    In RotJ, the rebels go all in with their attack in the DS2, ships, fighters, they hold nothing back.
    When Luke and co tries to rescue Jabba, that is a personal mission, not a rebel one.

    Imagine that in ANH, instead of 30 fighters, only 3 were sent. We do see that they have more fighters and pilots but no reason is given why they are not used.
    Would this make sense or just look stupid?

    Ummm, the blockade was LEGAL according to Nute.
    If it was illegal, why did the senate have such a problem with dealing with it?
    And the blockade was KNOWN, the senate knew full well what the TF was doing.
    So there the TF has nothing to hide.

    The invasion, that was illegal and they wanted to hide that.
    But that had not happened when Qui-Gon first showed up.

    His job was to end the blockade by making the TF agree to the terms Valorum had given him.
    The blockade would be over and the TF would go away.
    Since the senate had been very busy with this issue, the blockade being removed would be noticed and questions would be asked, "How was this resolved?"
    And the TF would not have any reason to not mention that Valorum had sent Jedi to issue his demands.
    So the involvement of the Jedi WOULD become known and Valorum was apparently fine with that.

    Since the Jedi decided to send two Jedi WITHOUT senate ok or orders from the chancellor, they could just as easily send 3-4 Jedi.

    Which is idiotic.

    But on Tatooine, Qui-Gon had a reason WHY he put Anakin's life in danger, to get the parts they need.
    It was a gamble, if Anakin crashed, he could die, they would loose their ship and be stranded.
    But an actual reason is given.
    No reason is given why Anakin just tags along and no one questions it or comments that this could be dangerous for the boy.
    Hence the difference.

    Wow, quite a lot of stuff that you made up here.
    We see one Geonosian spy on Obi-Wan when he is fiddling with his ship.
    Likely the same one, who called for the droids.
    The Jedi know that Obi-Wan was spotted and attacked, they do NOT know if there were anyone else there other than that droid. But assuming that the droid was alone and no one heard anything, is stupid.
    But this par for the course for the Jedi.
    Being PREPARED means that you plan for multiple eventualities.
    Simply assuming that everything will work out for the best and just act, that is far from smart.

    The Jedi did not know that Padme went there. And since Obi-Wan was caught, now the seps might be more on the look out for other ships.
    I am pretty sure that the rebels become more on the look out for imperial ships after they found the probe droid.

    So again the "The characters do what they do because they read the script" argument.
    You keep agreeing with me.

    Also, the OT, on the whole, did a far better job of explaining why a limited number was sent/used.
    In other words, better writing. Lucas took the time to set up and explain the situation and why only so many can go.
    See above for ANH and RotJ.

    With the PT, Lucas had strong vs weak and needed the weak side to win. But most often he just had the strong side be stupid and that is why they loose. This lazy writing.

    What does this have to do with anything?

    That some droids are up there shows that the Jedi failed to guard every entrance.
    As for Dooku, you seem confused, having a few jedi to guard that entrance is not as much about stopping Dooku and co from leaving. It is to stop soldiers from helping Dooku.
    Which is what the film shows.
    Mace is forced to flee because he is attacked by droids.
    Had some Jedi guarded the entrance, Mace and 2-3 other Jedi could have put a blade to Dooku's neck and said "Call the droids off or die."

    Since the droids vastly outnumber the Jedi and can be replaced much quicker, that is not much to brag about.
    The Jedi did far more damage to themselves and they have mostly their own stupidity to blame for that.

    Again, the Jedi did not know about a Gungan army when they decided to send just two Jedi.
    They also did not know that the blockade was gone.
    They knew that the force opposing them was; a military blockade, a big droid army and a possible sith lord.
    Aside from them, Padme had just a handful of guards.

    They do not go into hyperspace?
    So they traveled from Naboo to Tatooine using only sublight?
    How long did that take? Weeks?
    And how come the TF lost contact with them if they didn't go to lightspeed?


    So the TF can monitor ALL communication over the WHOLE galaxy?

    Old Stoneface
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    [face_rofl][face_rofl][face_rofl] now do you see why I constantly use this gif on him?

  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    There are no points here. Palpatine lost his saber, but was not beaten.

    "(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    "Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that now that its very clear that he’s...he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    Palpatine wasn't losing and he didn't surrender.

    A Force user can battle a Jedi who was caught unawares. That's why they don't believe that it was a Sith until later.

    No, I didn't. Maul had won the fight. I used defeated because he wasn't killed as the scene was originally intended. Maul still won. He beat Obi-wan in a straight up duel.

    We're talking about group of warriors, well trained, versus a Padawan and a Knight of the Ren. According to you, yes you, superior numbers should be enough. Five Jedi versus one Sith should be enough, just as half a dozen Praetorian guards should be enough.

    Did Yoda resign from the Council? Or Obi-wan, for that matter? I must've missed that scene.

    Wrong, again. Mace said that they cannot intercede if it comes to war. It comes to war and as Qui-gon told her, he cannot fight a war for her and as he said to Obi-wan as well.

    OBI-WAN: "Do you think the Queen's idea will work?"

    QUI-GON: The Gungans will not easily be swayed, and we cannot use our power to help her."

    No, it means that the plan worked because they trusted Padme's plan of attack and it proved to be the best possible course of action. Just like trusting that the only way to destroy the Death Star meant shooting at a two meter wide exhaust port with torpedoes.

    They believe that she is smarter than that. The former is an inane thing to think of and the latter would only make sense if she chose to stay behind and sign the treaty in the first place.

    Yes. They have no choice in the matter.

    Right, which depends on if he shows up at all. Or if he waits for them in the throne room. His appearance meant that they couldn't continue to protect her.

    Not likely. You don't know for certain either.

    If Darth Sidious was not involved at all, the Federation would have blockaded, but not have tried to invade Naboo. If the Jedi had successfully negotiated an end to the blockade, the Federation would just back away and not tell the Senate about why they gave up, because they had been beaten and due to their cowardice, wouldn't fight the matter in the Senate.

    They could only send the two who had already gone, not more than that.

    So what? They're still informed about the plan.

    Anakin cannot stay with the ship because it would be found as soon as they arrive and land. And they weren't going to risk leaving him at the scared place, in case the Federation sends a detachment to their. Or if the Sith Lord was on Naboo, it would be best if he wasn't left behind. And considering a fourteen year old and other teenage girls are going into battle, it's pretty obvious why no one questions Anakin.

    What was made up. We see one sentry who sends out one Droideka. Said Droideka captures Obi-wan and he tells Dooku that he's looking for Jango. The transmission is scrambled as Obi-wan stated. The Jedi believe that Obi-wan can deflect from what he just did, by sticking to his original mission statement.

    The point isn't what the Jedi know, the point is that the Separatists weren't looking for uninvited ships coming down. They didn't know about who was there. And if they were worried, they sure as hell wouldn't be holding public executions and instead be waiting for an assault to come.

    Lucas didn't explain **** in the OT. You just believe that he did.

    Mace fled because Jango was going to attack him with his flame thrower and he couldn't defend against that.

    I never said it was bragging, but the Jedi did take out quite a number of Battle Droids.

    Right and they believed that whatever plan Padme had, must have been good enough to risk going back instead of staying on Coruscant.

    Just like the Millennium Falcon did going from Hoth to Bespin. It probably did take days or weeks to get there. Which is why the people were starving to death on Naboo. You wouldn't be dying in one day, from starvation. The death toll was becoming catastrophic according to Bibble.

    They got out of their range and no ships were sent after them.

    No, but nearby systems like Tatooine.
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    According to every definition of the term, he was.

    There is no point here. Darth Maul was a Sith Lord who should have been confronted by multiple Jedi Masters.

    Wait, so: Maul won but he was defeated?

    According to me, when skill level is accounted for, numbers win. The PG weren't Jedi.

    Good thing we have the internet!

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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    If you don't surrender, then you are not beaten.

    But two Jedi managed to be seven guards? Sheer numbers need not apply. One Sith Lord managed to be two Jedi.

    Right. He won the fight against Obi-wan, but because of his arrogance, he was cut in two.

    But then Maul defeated two Jedi, so numbers don't win.

    I didn't hear, "I resign from the Jedi Council and quit being a Jedi."
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    He did surrender. And begged for mercy.

    According to ROTJ we know 1 Jedi can defeat a dozen guards. Guards aren't Jedi. And yes one Sith defeated two Jedi. So send more.

    So he was victorious in while being cut in two?

    This justifies the rational argument that more should have been sent. Also, Maul was defeated by two Jedi, managing to slay one in the process.
    Listen again. The dialogue is hidden deep deep in the audio layers. Takes a few listens to hear it.
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  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Nope, I already showed you that Intercede has a different meaning than Interfere.
    And the instance with the Gungans is a callback to when Qui-Gon used the mind trick to get a ship from Boss Nass.
    That was fairly innocent, this would be using the mind trick to get them to go to war and possibly get a lot of them killed.
    And Qui-Gon won't do that.
    And Qui-Gon not being able to fight the whole TF army, which you argue that he can anyway, is not the same as him not INTERFERING.

    Qui-Gon would try to stop the TF from killing or capturing Padme, that is INTERFERING.

    Except with the DS, they look over the data, make a plan and explain it to the pilots.
    Here the Jedi just assume that Padme has a plan and assume that it will work without even hearing it.
    The former makes sense, this does not.

    And this also deflates tension, if this is so easy that a 14 year old can come up with a plan that will work even with no Jedi. That means this will be a walk in the park.

    Padme says, "My fate will be no different than our people."
    Suggesting that she will join them in captivity or death.

    In ANH, the rebel pilots were briefed BEFORE they left.
    In RotJ, again the rebels had a briefing BEFORE they flew away.

    Except they do.
    They could choose to not send any Jedi, no one forced them to do that.
    Or they could send more than two.
    So they had a lot more options, you just won't admit it.

    If he doesn't show, then their main goal has failed.
    They went there, hoping he would show and as soon as he did, Padme would be left to fend for herself.
    So they would only protect her until their main objective appeared, after that she is on her own.

    And again, if protecting Padme is a priority, send more than two Jedi!
    Then if/when Maul shows, some Jedi can deal with him and some can keep protecting Padme.
    So since the Jedi did not do this simple thing, obviously keeping Padme safe is not that important.

    My position is based on actual lines said IN the film, yours is based on nothing but stuff you have made up.

    You are really have a knack for making stuff up.
    If Sidious was not involved, then the blockade would likely not have happened at all and I am pretty sure that he was the one who insisted on Naboo being the target.
    If the TF end the blockade, questions would be asked HOW this was resolved.
    Why would the TF lie about it?
    If they backed down because they were afraid of the Jedi, why would that not get out?
    The crew of the republic ship knew they were transporting Jedi for ex.
    No it would get out.

    Again, this is you making stuff up to suit your argument.
    There is no reason or logic in what you are arguing and it makes no sense.
    This is not established anywhere and so they could send more than two people but didn't, for what ever reason.
    The plot needs it or they are stupid.

    That is is stupid in the extreme to just go without even knowing that if there is a plan or what that is.
    And they were informed AFTER they left, which is also stupid.
    Imagine that the rebel pilots did not get briefed before they flew off, they only got briefed after they had arrived at the DS.
    Would that make sense?

    Anakin could easily stay at the place that Padme stayed at on Coruscant.
    If that was the Naboo embassy or what ever.
    Juts have one of Padme's handmaidens stay and look after him. Simple.
    And the Gungan hideout would be safer than the palace crawling with enemies

    All the stuff about the jedi thinking that he could not possibly have been overheard, or that the signal could not have been detected or that the seps would not be on alert after they caught a spy on their planet.
    Or what Obi-Wan would say to any interrogator.
    In short, almost all of it.

    The point is EXACTLY what the Jedi know, try to read what I write.
    No he did, you just didn't notice.

    Again the DS briefing.
    The background is that the rebel leaders have looked over the stolen DS plans and they have found a weakness.
    They then explain what that weakness is, that the DS defenses is designed against big ships so a small, one-man fighter can get through. What they need to hit and where.
    And the fact that Luke is allowed to join shows that they want to use all the pilots they can get their hands on. This explains why only fighters are used and it seems that the rebels are using as many as they can.

    In RotJ, they again explain what their plan is, send a small group to sneak in, under the shield, using a stolen ship and codes. Take down the shield and then the rest come in with all they have.

    In short, the writing is overall less contrived in the OT as these things are explained and set up better. With the PT, often people just do things because the plot needs them to.

    And because he had to pull his lightsaber away to protect himself against the droids that came out of the corridor.
    Had a few jedi stood guard there, Mace would not have pulled his lightsabre away and thus Jango could not have tried anything. If he had, he would be dead.

    And they did more damage to their side and those droids can be replaced very quickly.
    So they end up worse than before.

    So a 14-year old with no combat training can come up with better plans than the whole Jedi order?
    Wow, you keep making the Jedi more and more stupid.
    How about ASKING what her plan is before committing to it?


    First, they never say that they can't go to lightspeed, just that their fuel won't last to Coruscant.
    If they couldn't jump at all, say that.
    Two, if they didn't jump, why were no ships sent after them?
    This is the same stupid situation that we have in TLJ, the resistance ships won't jump and the FO is just following them. Not jumping a little ahead, not calling for other ships.
    Three, if no jump, how could they get out of range?
    That would take a far longer time.
    Fourth, if the ship didn't jump, then the TF would know that it can't get very far and why report that it is gone?
    Fifth, if they spent weeks getting to Tatooine, wouldn't the Jedi order wonder where they were?
    They were sent on what was thought to be a quick mission, settle this dispute with the TF and go back.
    If Qui-Gon is missing for weeks and won't answer any communication, that is odd.

    In closing, you keep using your usual method of making stuff up and as before, I loose interest in this discussion. Because it is pointless, you just make up anything to suit your argument and then the talk goes nowhere.
    So I won't play this game anymore.

  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    He lied. He didn't surrender, he had no intention of surrendering. He was playing Mace and Anakin for a fool. Remember in "Die Hard", when McClane threw down his machine gun and pretended to surrender to Hans and Eddie, only to grab his Beretta which was taped to his back and use it to shoot both men? Did you really believe that McClane surrendered, or did you know better? Same here.

    More didn't work. That's why the Jedi Posse was killed.

    He still won the fight despite his injuries, yes.

    Maul was gravely injured by a Jedi who was defeated by him in a duel, after killing another. It does not justify sending more Jedi, because he might not have been a Sith Lord. That's the point. Hindsight is always 20-20. What would you say if five Jedi killed a wannabe? Wouldn't that be overkill?

    You're not as funny as you think you are.

    Intercede and interfering are synonyms. That's why in the deleted dialogue, Mace says to not intercede on Padme's behalf and Qui-gon says that he cannot interfere if it comes to war.

    Padme reveals her plan after arriving on Naboo and gaining help from the Gungans and finding the few resistance members to help her. She's not going to reveal her plan until she has all of the players in place.

    No, she needs the Jedi to make the plan work. Just she needs the Gungans and the resistance fighters.

    No, it means that she's not going to stay in comfort, while her people are suffering. She's going back to fight and win or lose, she will have done something. If she was going for captivity or death, she wouldn't have come up with a plan. A plan that originates with Jar Jar telling her that his people have a grand army.

    When their hands are tied, they have to stand down until otherwise. They cannot operate without the Senate or the Chancellor's permission.

    If he didn't show, it would confirm the Council's suspicions that this wasn't a Sith Lord. Or that he was involved. That's why their secondary objective is to protect Padme.

    My position is based on the films, the screenplays, the novelizations and the commentary from Lucas.

    If you go by the film, it points out that this action on the part of the Federation with a blockade isn't an uncommon occurance. It's even considered legal. Qui-gon even tells Obi-wan that the Neimoidians are known for their cowardice and he later tells Padme that their actions in invading don't make sense since that doesn't fit in with their past history. Ergo, it is only the Sith involvement that takes it beyond being a blockade. You are correct, however, that Naboo probably wouldn't have been a target. But that is neither here, nor there.

    The crew transporting the Jedi wouldn't leak it out. And the Federation would keep quiet because of the embarrassment in failing to achieve any goal that they have.

    It is based on what is established in the film. It is not more "The plot needs it" than it is in ANH, that the plot needs a Jedi to destroy the Death Star.

    Hey, as long as they're briefed is all that matters.

    And yet, Qui-gon believed it necessary to take him along and not leave him behind. Not because he was reckless, but because he didn't have anywhere else to stick him and Padme wasn't objecting either. And the Gungan scared place could have been found while they're out and about. What if the Sith Lord was on Naboo, but he goes out in search of the ship and heads toward the scared place?

    1. We only see one Droideka. Not exactly a reliable witness to what Obi-wan did or didn't say. The transmission is scrambled. They can detect a transmission, but not what it said.

    2. We see that they were not on high alert, because the Naboo yacht lands without molestation.

    3. We know what Obi-wan would say because he said it, he was there looking for a bounty hunter.

    And in TPM, the plan is made after getting everything together in order to execute the plan. Step one, obtain help from the Gungans. Step two, find out who is capable of fighting and how many there are. Three, brief everyone on the plan. Four, execute the plan.

    Or Jango shoots Mace, because he takes his eyes off of him for a split second.

    No, because by that point, the Clone Army arrives and replaces the fallen Jedi.

    They did ask. That's what the discussion was about when they're on their way to Naboo.

    They cannot make the jump, much less any jump. That's why we don't see the jump and the script never supports that they do.

    Because the Federation are idiots. That's why they're lead by a Sith Lord and Grievous.

    By flying far enough distance to get out of their sensor range. The same way that the Falcon can quickly disappear by merely attaching itself to the back of a Star Destroyer bridge.

    Because it was out of their range. They know it is out of their range to track, but not already on Coruscant.

    Not necessarily. They might not be able to communicate and the Council would have to wait an X number of days in order to send out a search party.

    And yet, you still do after four years.
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    He said "Please don't kill me."

    They were killed because they were outnumbered by clones. If they had more they would have won.

    You might not get into a crash. But you still put on a seatbelt. I hope you understand this analogy. It makes your argument sound really dumb.

    So you have literally left reality behind then?

    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    He was acting. Pretending to be weak. Pretending to surrender.

    No, the Jedi Posse was killed by Palpatine. The Jedi who were killed by Order 66 were killed because they were taken by surprise.

    Even people wearing seat belts still get killed.

    No, I haven't. The fight was over when Obi-wan went down the reactor shaft and was helpless. All that was left was finishing him off. Darth Maul out fought Obi-wan and won. The only time Obi-wan actually beats Maul in duel is on Tatooine.

  22. heels1785

    heels1785 JCC/PT/New Films Manager star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 10, 2003
    I just don't follow that last point, sin. Ending a battle severed in half, yet somehow claiming victory sounds Monty Pythonesque.

    He had Kenobi beaten, yes. But he failed to finish the job. In the same way, say, a pitcher in baseball is absolutely dominant for 8 and 2/3 innings, but allows a home run with his last pitch that ultimately decides the game, and his team loses the game 0-1. It's an impressive showing, but still a loss.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    I thought he was lying? Now he was acting? So he did want to die? Which is it?

    Some weren't taken by surprise. They were simply overwhelmed by the NUMBER of clones.


    [​IMG] Yes. Yes you have.

    He is, as usual, living in his own version of reality. don't disturb him.
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    Just a flesh wound!
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Leave aside who is or isn't grievously wounded, who won the battle? Maul did. He was the superior fighter and stronger than Obi-wan was. His only failing after that was becoming arrogant and not bothering to destroy Qui-gon's saber. That is my point.

    He knew he wasn't going to die because Anakin was there and he would prevent that. He was lying the whole time with being too old and too weak. The whole point was to make Anakin chose and in order to get him to choose, he had to pretend to be weak. That's why as soon as Anakin cuts Mace's hand off, he springs to life and blasts him. Watch his face. He smiles right before attacking Mace.


    PALPATINE: "Power! Unlimited Power!"

    That's why he yells that. He's telling Mace and Anakin that he was not helpless and weak. That the dark side grants unlimited power to the Sith.

    Based on surprise. Even sheer numbers weren't enough as we saw with Obi-wan and Yoda.