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PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2020
    So, why in TESB Luke's sister is Yoda and Ben's last hope ?

    With that idea that "everyone can be a jedi" would just make Luke and his sister less important characters that could have easily been replaced by other "force believers".

    Why Vader even wants to "train" Luke as his apprentice when he can just train another person instead ? That's because Luke has far more potential than other people of the galaxy due to his bloodline.

    Force sensitivity has always been related to the bloodline since the release of episode 5.
     
    ConservativeJedi321 likes this.
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    They were there with Han, and Han was picked as bait. They were never of any use to Vader, Han was. And Han was only going to be given to Boba once Vader had Luke.

    The fact remains that Vader demanded for them to never leave Cloud City, instead of taking them with him, arresting them, or kill them.
     
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    1) Since Lucas is the one who said "Everyone can do it." ask him.
    2) That everyone can do it does not mean that everyone can do it as easily or quickly.
    A tall person has an advantage is say high jumping, does not mean someone fairly short can't become a great high-jumper, it just means they will have to work harder at it. Swedish high-jumper Stefan Holm is an example of that.
    3) The "other" was originally Luke's sister Neelith, who later was just sister and in the final film, Yoda says "No, there is another." So another hope but does not have to be a relative of Luke.
    4) Why Vader wants to train Luke is easy, it's his son. Vader can not take on the emperor alone. If he started to train someone on the side, odds are that the emperor would sense it and take action.
    Luke is partially trained but is very strong. So less training is needed.
    5) In the OT, they most often say "The Force is strong with him.", "The Force is with him." "May the Force be with us." There is an element of blessing, faith here. That the Force can be with someone or not.
    The Force is compared to religion so if the Force is a "deity" then it can be more or less with someone. Not because of their blood but because who they are as people.
    If all that mattered was blood then the Force is with someone equally all the time as the blood does not vary.

    In closing, when it comes to SW, very little has "always been". Things change, is ret-conned or altered. And Lucas quite often changes his mind.

    You forgot this line;
    So given this line and how Vader has kept altering the deal then it is very clear that Vader NEVER intended to leave Leia and Chewie on Bespin. They were always going to be taken with him. And likely tortured for information and then publicly executed as traitors to the Empire.
    Han would most likely be given to Boba Fett. But Leia and Chewie would almost certainly have been killed.
    Their deaths would most likely impact Luke in a bad way.

    As for only Han being tortured, this is incorrect. Chewie was tortured by the screeching sounds in his cell.
    And Luke said that he had a visions about Han AND Leia and that THEY were in pain. So Leia was likely tortured as well. We just didn't see it. I doubt the filmmakers wanted an R-rating.
    So they were ALL bait.

    Don't agree.
    The word sacrifice is quite often used when a person or animal dies.
    So even with the uncertainty of they dying or not, Luke asks Yoda directly and Yoda gives a direct answer.
    Even if it means their death, Luke should not go.
    So it sure sound like Luke should let Han and Leia die because he is more important than them.
    As Obi-Wan said;
    Han and Leia are tortured to draw Luke out. And if Luke is captured, turned or killed, it will be a massive loss for the good side and so Yoda and Obi-Wan wants to prevent that.

    Also "He doesn't own or control Han and Leia"? So does that mean he should never help them? That if they are in danger, he should should do nothing?
    Luke does go to Tatooine to help rescue Han. Was that wrong? Was he giving into his attachment by doing that?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    The main issue with how Yoda and Obi-Wan train Luke is that they are the last two Jedi (one is dead, and the other, by the time of TESB, will be dead within a year) and they are in a dire situation concerning the fate of the galaxy. Luke is the son of the second in command of the Empire and the Jedi know that Luke will be the lynchpin that can tug at Vader's heartstrings enough to cause chaos between Vader and the Emperor. EVERYTHING that Yoda and Obi-Wan do concerning Luke's Jedi training needs to understood as coming from a literal last-ditch mindset.

    The issue really stems from the PT because this mindset (last-ditch effort) seems to be the Jedi mindset even during era's of relative peace, and that makes the Jedi look like a bunch of jerks. It's one thing to tell a young Jedi student that he may have to accept that his friends are going die because he needs to finish his training because he is literally one of only two last hopes. It is another thing entirely to just tell a Jedi student, anytime around the TPM timeframe, that you need to just let your friends die because you got Yoga at 3:30.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  5. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't know about Yoda, but I do not recall Obi-Wan viewing Luke as a means to tug at Anakin's heartstring. Judging from the dialogue between him and Luke in "ROTJ", he saw Anakin as a lost cause and wanted him dead. And he wanted Luke to kill him. At one point in the movie, Luke had declared that he could not deliberately kill his father. Obi-Wan's reaction was to look disappointed.

    I don't recall the "everyone can be a Jedi" mantra in any of the PT movies.
     
    Kenneth Morgan likes this.
  6. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    The jedi never say that in the movies.
     
  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    LUKE: ...and sacrifice Han and Leia?

    YODA: If you honor what they fight for, yes.
     
  8. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019

    That was in the OT, not the PT.
     
  9. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    Guess Yoda regrets saving Padme, Anakin and Obi Wan on Geneosis.(Since it was a trap to bring the Jedi into the clone wars conflict.)
     
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Is Yoda not still a Jedi in TESB?

    Yoda himself tells Anakin he just has to let people die in ROTS and that doesn't even have anything to do with the Clone Wars. It's just normal day-to-day stuff and Yoda's just like, "If they die, they die, bro."
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  11. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    I think he considered himself a failed Jedi since he basically did nothing in all the years while he was on exile. Real Jedis never give up fighting the Sith.

    So, I don't think Yoda was a real Jedi in TESB.
     
  12. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    The main reason I love the PT forums is the astounding mental gymnastics.

    The main question I'm asking is, Do the Jedi preach about the greater good? Do the Jedi require that its knights put the Order and the Republic before any personal attachments? Everyone keeps dancing around this question and I have a pretty good idea why.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  13. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    That's not about letting friends die in the interest of attending yoga.
    Belittling people's perceptions isn't necessary.

    I think they do have a rule that they put those over personal attachments. But that doesn't have to equal letting friends die in the interest of yoga.
     
    antitoxicgamer likes this.
  14. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    It's not mental gymnastics. No matter what anyone says, you will just deny it. So, it's pretty useless talking to you at all.

    You just love to act like you could make a better trilogy than PT while you haven't made anything 1 percent as good as PT.
     
    Samnz likes this.
  15. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    You think? It is said in AOTC that attachments are forbidden.

    TESB came out in 1980. I have never heard one person claim that Yoda wasn't a Jedi until today, literally 40 years later. This goes against what the creator of the character, Lucas, has even said. So, why should I put any weight on this claim? It is almost impossible to even have a discussion about these films because no one can even agree about objective facts concerning the movies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  16. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 4, 2014
    The force being something anyone can tap into ruins the films. Let me explain, if Obi-Wan and Yoda could train anyone to be a Jedi, then there really is no excuse for them doing nothing for 20 years. Yes, they were outnumbered, but at the same time investing so much time and energy in Luke on the off-chance that Vader/Anakin will "see the light" by virtue of facing his son/daughter seems rather half-baked. They could have devoted that time to establishing a new Jedi Academy in secret pumping out new Lukes on a yearly basis, giving them numerical superiority. And if anyone has a problem with the force having a genetic origin, then they really need to direct their ire at ROTJ. That's the film that establishes that the force is stronger in certain bloodlines than others. The prequels simply took it to its logical conclusion.
     
  17. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    It's said as far back as ANH that everyone is connected to the Force. It binds all living things together, and it communicates to living beings. Everyone can tap into it, in one way or another. A sudden flash of intuition could be just a hunch, or it could be the Force.
    However, while everyone is Force sensitive, not everyone can be a Jedi. For that, you need to be very strong in the Force, have the training on how and when to use your powers, and the commitment to use them for good. The PT purposely muddies the waters by asking just what it means to be a Jedi, and whether or not that includes the PT-era dogma.
    To an extent, the ST seems to misinterpret the situation by saying everyone is Force-sensitive, thus anyone can be a Jedi. And I won't get into the whole thing of how a living being can cut themselves off from an energy field created by life itself.
     
  18. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Attachments being forbidden being a rule doesn't have to mean that it correalates with all the perimeters of putting the jedi and the republic first. I don't really know, for certain, if rules about putting attachments under the republic is the rule the jedi pushes for. It may be in general.
    I think your post had a belittling remark in it. I think that doesn't enforce healthy discussion.
     
  19. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    The Jedi in the OT were likable, there was no restrictions like the PT, for all we knew Jedi could marry and training even evovled, “No more trainkng do you require, already know that which you need.” (Yoda, ROTJ). The OT made the Jedi more akin go Knights with mage like powers, while the Prequels made them into Beaucratic Dogmatic Monks.

    So yes, The Prequels ruined the Jedi. In PT They forbid attachment and emotion, which is ihumane To quote Anakin, “from my point of view the Jedi are evil.”

    In the OT Kenobi didn’t discourage Luke’s emotions, “Your feelings do you credit, but they coukd serve the Emperor.” This was not the “There is No Emotion,” folly of the Prequel Jedi Code, but that while having feelings be wary of having them manipulated or being controlled by them.

    The only Jedi Code I like is this one:

    “Emotion, yet peace.
    Ignorance, yet knowledge.
    Passion, yet serenity.
    Chaos, yet harmony.
    Death, yet the Force.”
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    If it "ruins" the films then blame Lucas, he said "Everyone can do it." while making RotJ.
    So it was not an exclusive trait.
    Also, since all living things are connected to the Force and it is created by all living things, why is the idea that everyone is able to tap into it something that "ruins" the films?

    Yoda's and Obi-Wan's plan has holes in it even with "Only the select few can tap into the Force."
    Consider, they wait for three tears while their two "only hopes", Luke and Leia run around, being hunted by the Empire. Why?
    What were they doing for all that time?
    Since Luke and Leia are now on the Empire's radar and are enemies of said Empire. And they are both together. If the Empire find them, both hopes are either killed or taken captive. Which means there are now NO hopes left.
    So why did Yoda and Obi-Wan do nothing for three years?
    It would be very easy to have Obi-Wan tell Luke to go to Dagobah the day after ANH ended and take Leia with him. But no.
    Leia is left to fend for herself even after Luke is called and they are apparently cool with her dying.

    Also, by the end of RotS, there were other Jedi alive in the galaxy. Did they ever try to reach them, to bring them together and strike at the Sith? Not as far as the films go.

    Lastly, "The Force is strong in my family" does not have to refer to genes or blood. Since the Force is treated in part as spiritual/religious then it could simply be that the Force is strong with some families because they are "blessed" in some fashion.

    About PT Jedi being ok with people dying.
    I think they can let people die but not on a whim or for frivolous reasons like "Oh I just need a hair cut so I'll let people die."
    In AotC, Dooku offered Mace a surrender to spare the lives of about 20 jedi and non-jedi.
    He rejected it, without even speaking with the others and choose to let them all die. Because he felt the cost was too high.
    Later, Anakin wants to go back for Padme but Obi-Wan reprimands him and says that the mission is more important and warns that if Anakin would go against the mission then he would get expelled from the order.
    In both cases, the "greater good" is more important and lives can be sacrificed to achieve it.
    It is therefore a bit odd that Yoda does not practice this, when Dooku puts Obi-Wans and Anakins lives in danger so that he can escape. And Yoda lets him get away. Even Yoda was very clear that stopping Dooku from escaping was vital and if he escapes the war will grow and many more will die.
    My explanation is that even Yoda is not as cold and calculating to let two people he knows and cares about die just to accomplish the mission and he was "only human" and could not sacrifice them to the "greater good".

    In RotS Yoda did sound rather cold towards Anakin when it came to people dying. At least to me.
    To not mourn or miss anyone, that does not sound healthy.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
    jaimestarr likes this.
  21. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't think just anyone can tap into the Force. I certainly don't believe the movies had hinted this, with the exception of "The Last Jedi". On the other hand, I believe the Force was only strong in the Skywalker family bloodline, due to Anakin's personal connection to the Force. I don't recall any other family of Force users in the films . . . until "The Rise of Skywalker".

    I never got the impression that Obi-Wan harbored the belief that Luke might help Anakin reject evil in the Original films. He seemed to regard Anakin as a lost cause that required destruction. As for Yoda, when was it stated or confirmed that he saw Luke as an instrument to turn Anakin from evil? Was it in a comic book or novel?
     
  22. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 4, 2014
    I am aware what Lucas said during the making of ROTJ, but in his 6 film saga that's patently false. Yoda and Obi wouldn't have such limited options "That boy is our last hope." if that were the case. I definitely subscribe to the idea that everyone has force potential, but not everyone can become a Jedi. Luke's family due to their high midichlorian count are naturally predisposed to being powerful force-users. And you can interpret Luke's line in ROTJ however you want, but it at least brings genetics into the conversation *potentially*. TPM and the prequels simply followed through with that logic thread.

    To your point about Yoda, do you think maybe by the time ESB comes around Yoda regrets letting Dooku go? Perhaps he feels he was in error since it perpetuated a war that led to the Jedi's downfall? Which is why he is so insistent that Luke doesn't make the same mistake he did.
     
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  23. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Sep 13, 2004
    I am sure this has been brought up before, but I'll just say it again:

    "Anybody can be a Jedi" is about as true as saying "Anybody can be an Olympic athlete".

    Technically, both are possible. Yet, there's a tremendous amount depending on biology, upbringing, environment, as well as an inordinate amount of sacrifice, dedication, and almost divine concurrence of events for these to happen.

    Now, did the Prequels "wreck" the Jedi? It depends upon your point of view. The OT didn't really explain the Jedi in a detailed way and much was left up to the imaginations of the viewers. Without a doubt, the PT did not display what many fans thought the Jedi would be. Furthermore, it contradicted some of Lucas's earlier thoughts/ideas/claims about the Jedi. That's a thing about George Lucas, many of his ideas about Star Wars were nebulous and not set in stone.

    Every time we get a new Star Wars films/show/prequel/sequel it expands the lore, the mythology, and "how things work" in some way. Yet it also can contradict our personal views/thoughts/imaginings about our favorite galaxy far, far, away...
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  24. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't. I believe some individuals have the potential to be a Force user and some don't. That's it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  25. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    I always understood you were “strong in the Force,” or not, hence why the Jedi would select Force Sensitives to be trained who already had an affinity in the Force.