PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

Leia was also a hope and yet neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan were very interested in her. Both knew of her and knew that she had the same potential as Luke. And yet they were content to let 50% or their "last hopes" die.
So with the limited options Yoda and Obi-Wan had, they for no apparent reason, made it even more limiting.

Plus given the midis, they would have a lot of options.
Any sibling to a PT Jedi, say if Mace had a younger brother/sister. That sibling would have the same midi count Mace had and would thus be useful. If any of those siblings had children of their own, another potential Jedi.
Any child in the republic with a high enough midi count, whose parents were NOT willing to give up their child and never see that child again. Those are also potential Jedi.
Add to that the Jedi that were left alive after RotS.
So even with the PT, Yoda and Obi-Wan had other options and yet apparently did nothing with them.
They ignored Leia and they let Luke run around, hunted by the Empire for three years without any concern.
So even with the PT, their actions are odd.

As for who can become a Jedi.
I always preferred that it was open to everyone. Anyone that had the dedication, the heart, the faith and was willing to put in the time and effort to accomplish it. They could become a Jedi.
I can buy that some might have a leg up, an easier start, a way to learn faster.
So Luke could become a Jedi faster than most. But someone else could, if they spent the time and effort, also learn to become a Jedi. It would just take longer than for Luke.

Making being a Jedi an exclusive club for the genetic elite, that I don't much care for. That all that matters is your blood, who you are as a person, your own dedication, perseverance, if you are a good person. That does not matter. All that counts is if you have the "right" blood. "Normal" people need not bother.

I think that Yoda regretted that at the end of AotC. He knew the war had started and that millions would likely die. Lives he might have saved if he had sacrificed Anakin and Obi-Wan. Mace was willing to let 20+ people die. Obi-Wan was willing to let Padme die.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Jedi get a lot of grief for being "uncaring", and I think at least some of it, maybe a lot of it, is unfair.

Think about how many billions upon billions of people are under the tyrannical grip of the Emperor, in the time of the OT. It's actually HARD to imagine, because the numbers are so staggering... the equivalent of what, a hundred thousand Earths? A million? More? I think it's a shame that because the ST movies and animated features don't dwell on the details of the evils the Empire inflicted, and because we are so often shown worlds "on the fringe" (it was implied that Tatooine, for example, was a nowhere planet WAY out "on the borders", and thus the Imperials didn't waste a lot of time with it, so your daily life might go on with little Imperial interaction), that a fair number of people seem to think that life under the Empire wasn't really so bad. And I grant you - the movies don't give us a lot. Is life under the Empire like living in the old USSR? Nazi Germany? Current North Korea? To me, it is meant to be pretty clear that the Emperor is a tyrant, that the Empire is evil, and that living under it is awful. (The casual ease with which Alderaan is destroyed is meant to suggest this, in short hand, obviously).

I mention all this because I think it is VERY important to remember the STAKES here. If the Emperor and Vader aren't defeated, if the Empire isn't overthrown, you are talking about billions... maybe many more than that ... people living in tyranny. For decades or more. By the time of ESB, Luke and Leia are pretty much IT. Potentially the last hope.

So when Yoda tells Luke that if he honors what his friends fight for, yeah, he might have to not take Vader's bait, even if that means their death? That is harsh and tough but it makes total sense. In real life, those kinds of decisions have to be made all the time, especially in times of war. And think about it, what did Luke actually accomplish in ESB? Forget his admirable loyalty and heroism - he was nearly captured or killed, Han was STILL turned over to the bounty hunter, etc. Basically, he luckily escaped falling into Vader's trap and ending the hopes of the Rebellion. Yoda isn't being cold or mean - he is being a pragmatic, sensible LEADER.

I realize this is a Prequels thread, but the discussions with Yoda and Obi Wan from ESB keep being raised, so I wanted to chime in.

 

In Legends, the figure was close to 100 quadrillion. Earth has a population of close to 10 billion. So you're looking at a bit over 10 million Earths.

 

One problem is the way that Yoda & Kenobi express their view in the PT and the OT. They probably do care about what could happen to Padme, and Shmi, and Leia, Han, Chewie and Threepio. But they don't express it at all. They don't tell Ani and Luke that they're sorry about what could happen. Instead, they retreat to the big picture/no attachments Jedi template of the time. They behave as though what happens to one's friends & family are, at best, unimportant and not worthy of consideration. I'm sure they did have compassion, but by not expressing it they just drove Ani & Luke away from the path they wanted them to follow. This resulted in tragedy for Ani, but ultimately led to success and vindication for Luke.
Compare them to Qui-Gon. He at least showed concern for Shmi's welfare, and was conscious of Ani's feelings, while still keeping to Jedi principles.

 

I think the Prequwl Jedi are at the best in AOTC, the Masters are patient with Anakin (even tender), Obi-Wan acts fatherly, and Anakin isn’t persecuted via their paranoia like in ROTS or subjected to their stoicism as in TPM.

 

I'm a big fan of the Jedi, and in many many Threads I have pushed back against what I summarize as the outlook that the SW movies are about how the Jedi screwed up everything. That summary is a bit unfair, I grant you, but on a certain level, I do think that idea has taken hold, and I always argue against it (not that the Jedi are flawless, by any means!).

That being said, I somewhat agree that the movies don't do the best job of explaining the Jedi philosophy. Absent explanation and context, the Jedi can come off as weirder than I think they are, or are meant to be. I cut the movies some slack on that point, in the sense that they only have so much screen time, and no one is buying a ticket to a SW movie to get a half hour of the Jedi explaining stoicism, or Buddhist philosophy, or Jedi versions of the same. Nonetheless, I can understand why we are still debating whether the Jedi are coldly unfeeling, what "attachment" means, and so forth (even though I think Anakin demonstrates the potential downside of overdone attachment, and also of fear, in his murderous turn to the Dark Side). It's not hard for unemotional acceptance to come off as uncaring, or for discussions of the dangers of attachment to be seen as suggesting Jedi should care for no one (as opposed to suggesting they should care for EVERYONE, equally, which is that I think they were going for).

HOWEVER, I keep hearing how caring Qui Gonn is (just today, coincidentally, I saw excerpts from a Dave Filoni (SP?) interview discussing this!), and I have to tell you, I have never understood that. Qui Gonn is fairly unemotional, stoic, and grim throughout. He's gruff with Obi Wan, many times, even when basically praising him (in front of the Council, you can make a pretty good argument that he says Obi Wan is ready for the trials simply because he wants to talk on Anakin's training... he hardly gives ObiWan a glowing endorsement when he describes him, grudgingly, as "capable" and with a lot to learn!). He seems to barely tolerate Jar Jar. He makes it clear that he doesn't see the freeing of slaves as any of his business - at the time, I recall this being discussed a LOT (people were taken aback at a heroic character basically shrugging at slavery, even if, on a practical level, one can hardly expect one Jedi to overthrow an entire political/economic system). He is more than happy to free Anakin (who is useful to him) using some trickery and deception , Force-influencing Watto's die to ensure it is Anakin who will be freed and turned over to him, and Shmi who will remain in slavery, again kind of shrugging "Oh well, Watto wouldn't have it'. Between Obi Wan and Qui Gonn, Obi Wan is far more expressive, outwardly emotional, and "human".

Now, to be clear, I LIKE Qui Gonn - but then again, I don't have a lot of problems with the Jedi's stoicism. Just saying that in their desire to embrace Qui Gonn as a "good Jedi" when compared to the rest, this notion of him as a warm caring figure in comparison has sprung up, and from the movie itself, I just can't see it.

 

I am big fan lf the Jedi too. I prefer The Old Republic/High Republic era of Jedi, followed by AOTC, then The Mandalorian/New Republic Era.

 

I think someone can care, without showing aggressive emotion. I think Qui-Gon pursues goals, without taking the council's control into direct account. I think he pursues Anakin's freeing with his mom, but when he can't he pursues the child over the mom and allows them to choose whether he'll stay or go. I think there's a difference between understanding that you can't actually force others to free people (I think him enacting violence to do so, may not fall in line with what he may think is healthy), and not caring about it.

 

I think a lot of it comes from the cult-like nature of the Jedi. They are ostensibly brainwashing babies.

 

Arn’t we all?

The Jedi do best when they “pass on what they have lesrned,” and then leave forcr user to decide. The hoerachy wnd tank structutr of the PT Jedi Order was folly. The Jedi are at their best when they disicple the next gen of Lighside potentials without a Jedi Council, Ranks, and System that is prone to hubris and self righteousness.

The best Jedi Master is a ascetic, a hermit or one apart from some sense of a Order. The Way of the Jedi is not a hierarchy, its teachings and training passed from master to apprentice.

 

I think all of that really depends on what message you think we're supposed to get from the Jedi. If you look at the Jedi as an institution that grew beyond what it fundamentally stands for and became too large and unwieldy, then it makes sense that they ultimately collapsed under their own weight. But that also means you have to accept that the Jedi of the PT were flawed and needed to get back to their roots.

So when someone asks if the PT ruined the Jedi ...I'd say that the whole point of the PT was to ruin the Jedi. I think the real question is, "Did the PT ruin the Jedi to the point where you don't want to see them make a return?" And for me, the PT made the Jedi so terrible, that I don't particularly feel giddy about Luke training to become a Jedi in the OT anymore.

 

That is why GL failed. When Order 606 happens with the tragic choir, you feel like, “good riddance,” rather than mournful. GL needed to give the PT Jedi qualities that made you like them, even have Obi and Yoda holding strictly to Jedi Code and hierarchy and see they feel conflicted, like they want to break the rules but feel unable to; this would have vilified the system, not the members of the system (Order).

 

One line that always struck me as off is from Yoda in AOTC where he says that arrogance is a flaw more and more common in Jedi. It makes me think, "Okay, so you recognize what is becoming a fundamental flaw in the order AND you are a senior member of the Jedi council, so why aren't you even attempting to do anything about it?" It makes it seem like Yoda understands that the Jedi are drifting away from the ideal they should be striving for, but he doesn't really care.

 

I think Yoda was trying to heighlight the problem, but was rather powerless to effect change. The Jedi had become too entangled in the affairs of the Republic, to the point they were losing their soul. Jedi defend the Republic, certainly, but becoming emeshed is another thing. Honestly, Order 606 was in my view The Will of the Force forcing the Jedi back to their roots and severing their unhealthy codependency to the Republic.

 

For me it didn't ruin the Jedi, but it made Luke's path to Jedi-ism look way harder. "You must confront Vader. Only then a Jedi you will be!"
What did Kit Fisto have to do to be a Jedi? Bag a giant salmon?

 

I don't see how painting them as flawed is ruining them and I don't see how that makes me want to see them all die. Why would I think "good riddance" because they weren't filled out characters, as a whole? Why should I expect them to be filled out? They're not even what I call B or C lister characters (maybe they could be, but I don't think that really serves the story and characters in those movies as much). I think that's like me expecting the OT to fill out Briggs or something. I don't even see anything that would make me specifically dislike them, in that way.

I don't know what Yoda should do about it really. I think he can't force that out of them and things kinda blow up after it.

 

I was using “good riddance” to express that instead of feeling sorrowful, you feel apathetic about the end of the Jedi because they have destroyed themselves by persecuting Anakin into puppetry of Palpatine. My point isn’t flaws, I mentioned it would have worked if Yoda and Obi had been contrained by the rules but wanted to brewl them, this would have shown that manny Jesi felt trapped under their dogma and in exile Kenobi and Yoda find perspective anc change.

 

I don't think of Anakin as being persecuted. I see Anakin as responsible for his own choices.

I don't think the movies show jedi's way of things as as being that.

 

In ROTS Anakin is treated with contempt and asked to do things against his conscious. The Jedi prese him into the arms of Palpatine.

 

I think TCW finale didn't really help tbh. They seemed to double down on the Jedi being jerks angle. Luminara and Mace say hi. Kinda seemed unnecessary on the show's part. Then again, Mace was never a developed character in the show anyway.

 

Somewhat agree.
I was not very upset or saddened by Order 66.
Why due to several reasons;
1) The Jedi were presented as way too clueless when it came to the Clone army and the many mysteries around it. They seemingly just used the army, no questions asked and were taken totally by surprise when the clones turned on them. Given how much they knew that was fishy, this makes them seem dumb.
2) Their overall cold and uncaring behavior. The Jedi seemed disinterested in what was going on and often displayed an attitude of not giving a **** about people or their emotions.
Yoda scolded a scared nine year old boy for having very normal feelings of missing his mother. They seemingly could not see how leaving Anakin's mother to suffer as a slave would impact him badly.
Yoda gave Anakin very cold sounding advice when it comes to dealing with loss.

In all, I did not much care about the Jedi. The only ones I liked was Obi-Wan and due mostly to AotC and RotS. Qui-Gon had some warm scenes with Shmi that I did like but his death was spoiled by the back of the soundtrack album.
Mace I did not care about. Yoda I liked from the OT, not from the PT. The rest were totally uninteresting.
So when they all died, I did not care because I was uninvolved and unengaged.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I don't think he did scold Anakin for his feelings about his mom, but about his dismissal of those feelings.

I think Yoda didn't fully get his emotions, but I don't really see here why it being cold sounding changes the situation.

They didn't force Anakin to confide in Palpatine, to be egotistical, to side with him. Anakin behaved like a child when he was denied the master rank. Should the jedi give him something they feel he doesn't deserve? Why shouldn't Anakin be the one to accept his limitations and not act out?

Poor Anakin, who slaughtered an entire village and decapitated someone in cold blood a few days ago or something. Forgive me if I don't see his pangs of conscience as having much more emphasis other than Anakin being blind and selfish, based on his caring for Palpatine. Those pangs didn't stop him from the other things. Obi-Wan points out the issues here, and I think Anakin sidesteps them.

 

To a nine year old, those are one in the same.

A 900 year old creature doesn't understand how to talk to kids? You can't just talk bluntly to a nine year old.

The fact that Anakin was a walking psychopath and the Jedi never noticed makes them look like idiots.

The fact that the Jedi never put two and two together about the Clone Army makes them look dumb too.

 

Great ponts, espeically since Yoda in AOTC talks to Jedi Younglings tenderly, but in TPM he is abrasive towards Anakin. The truth is I think the Council resented Anakin beig the Chosen One; a change to the status quo they didn’t want. Because then Anakin would be in charge of the new frontier of “Bringing Balance to the Force.”

 

It mostly just comes down to the writing. Lucas wanted certain things to happen, and it usually went at the behest of the Jedi. Lucas decided he wanted Anakin to have an early distrust of the council, so Lucas makes the Jedi treat him coldly when he first meets them. This happens for plot reasons, rather than character reasons.

Lucas decided he didn't want the Jedi to be privy to the origins of the Clone Army, so he writes them in away that they just disregard what Dooku tells Obi-Wan about what is happening in the galaxy as opposed to seeing a clear link between the Separatists and the Republic through Jango and Dooku. Again, this is for plot convenience, rather than character reasons.