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PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I think the movies do delve into Jedi philosophy, quite a lot actually. Only it's done in much more subtle ways. The core issue of love, of passion and attachment vs compassion and selflessness, is well established in the movies.

    I think the real problem is that a significant number of people have a hard time accepting that discipline and "deepest commitment" that the Jedi have to take in order to be Jedi. Most people are not willing to go there, and so they dismiss all of their rules and philosophies as flawed or wrong.

    For example, throughout the years, I've seen a significant number of people believing that Luke's decision to rush to save his friends was right. That Anakin's decision to rush to save his mother was right. Even when we see the premisses and consequences. People have a much more emotional analysis and superficial reading of the story and the characters.
     
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  2. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2020
    But didn't Luke do the right thing ?

    1.He managed to save Chewie and Leia by going there.(He also brought R2 which fixed the hyper drive.)

    2.His arrival distracted Vader and allowed Lando to betray the Empire.

    3.He faced Vader and that experience prepared him to facing him in episode 6.(If Vader didn't cut Luke's hand then Luke wouldn't have hesitated to kill Vader in episode 6.)

    Imo, the decision of Anakin going to save his mother was right. It was just his emotions that got a better of him and made him to kill the sand people.(On the other hand, Luke handled the situation of the Empire killing his Uncle and Aunt much better.)
     
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  3. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I think the Prequels made the Jedi interesting. However, this all began in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Luke discovered that both Obi-Wan and Yoda had failed to inform him that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker.


    Luke DID NOT handle Obi-Wan's death very well. Actually, that was when his emotions got the best of him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    No real harm done there though, except to the stormtroopers, who were armed enemy combatants.
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, he reacted emotionally instead of rationally, he acted on fear and attachment, knowing that he was unprepared since he hadn't finished his training.

    "It’s pivotal that Luke doesn’t have patience. He doesn’t want to finish his training. He’s being succumbed by his emotional feelings for his friends rather than the pratical feelings of “I’ve got to get this job done before I can actually save them. I can’t save them, really.” But he sort of takes the easy route, the arrogant route, the emotional but least practical route, which is to say, “I’m just going to go off and do this without thinking too much.” And the result is that he fails and doesn’t do well for Han Solo or himself."

    No, he didn't save anyone. Instead, his friends he went there to save were the one that ended up saving him instead. He failed.

    Vader was not distracted. Vader's plan worked. Lando's decision to not go along had nothing to do with Luke. It had to do with Vader not keeping his word.

    He faced Vader unprepared and almost died. Instead, he should have finished his training and faced Vader when he was deemed ready to do so.

    But that's the thing, it wasn't. Anakin failed as well, by acting on fear and attachment, and at the expense of his duty. In the end, he didn't free his mother (she was already free) and he didn't save his mother. Instead, because he acted on his fear of loss, he massacred the Tuskens out of anger at his loss.

    Which is exactly what Yoda warned about in TPM: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  6. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 19, 2020
    The Jedi come across as uncaring and cold in the PT. They strive to do the right thing, but they're too detached. They almost quite literally sit in an ivory tower and (whether George intended it to be this way or not) seem kind of stupid most of the time. A good example is the scene where Anakin goes to talk to Yoda at the beginning of ROTS. There is clearly something wrong with Anakin that needs immediate attention. Telling him to just acept that people will die and leaving it at that IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. You need to actually start sending this kid to therapy. I mean, Anakin's been fighting a war for three years, watching his comrades get blown apart. Poor guy probably has PTSD and Yoda's advice is to "let go". Let go? Kid needs therapy.

    And you might say, "Well, the Jedi are supposed to be this way." Well, Anakin is clearly not to that level yet which makes Yoda seem like he is either too incompetent to realize, or too uncaring to invest in what Anakin's emotional needs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  7. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 11, 2019
    That's not the point. The point is that Luke had lost his temper over Obi-Wan's death and blindly started shooting at stormtroopers, despite the fact that Han, Chewie and Leia were heading toward the safety of the Falcon. He had allowed his anger over Obi-Wan's death to behave in a rash and ugly manner. That was the real harm. And matters could gotten worse if Obi-Wan's ghost had not urged him to board the Falcon.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Didn't the stormtroopers fire first, immediately after Luke's "No!" drew their attention?

    And eventually Han tells Luke to blast the door, to keep Vader and more stormtroopers from arriving.

    Luke isn't just "behaving in a rash and ugly manner" - he's keeping the stormtroopers from swarming the Falcon, keeping them off Han, Leia, & Chewie's backs. Vader might have already told them to let the Falcon go by that point - but Luke doesn't know that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I'm inclined to agree that they're detached and that may be why Yoda doesn't quite understand what Anakin may be heading towards emotionally. But I maintain that Yoda shouldn't have to give Anakin the answer he wants. Therapy or not, I think Anakin wanted what he wanted and Yoda's advice or help wouldn't have been something that was enough for him if it wouldn't have given him a way to save Padme, at this point moreso.

    Yoda isn't what I'd call uncaring, but I also don't think Anakin's behaviour is particularly a massive showcase of what he'd do. The jedi simply don't know everything.
     
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  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 19, 2020
    Look at Anakin in that scene and tell me, just by reading his body language, that you can't tell something is seriously wrong with him.
     
  11. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 29, 2005
    Then we have to bring in the depiction of Jedi thrpughput the Legends Canon, right?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
  12. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    the Yoda Anakin scene reminded me of a troubled youth going to a guidance counselor and the counselor saying "you're okay. Just snap out of it kid." Jedi or not it seemed really cold.
     
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  13. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I wouldn't 100% assume that the jedi wouldn't see it as worry about this situation, instead of this guy being on the path to be an outright villain.
     
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 19, 2020
    And still they do nothing?

    Another scene that always bothered me (again with Yoda) is from AOTC when Yoda starts talking about arrogance being a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Well, you're in a position of authority. Do something about it!

    It's just begs the question, why include dialogue like that in the first place? Why make Yoda know there is a systemic problem within the order, but then not even attempt to rectify it?
     
  15. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 29, 2005
    Even in the TPM, The Jedi Council dismiss QuiGon's claims that he may have encountered a Sith Lord..

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  16. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 27, 2016
    Y'all are referring to Anakin in RotS as a kid, which brings up the point here, he's not a kid anymore. Yoda's advice is enough for a trained, grown Jedi Knight, and Anakin should be at that level. The problem is with Anakin. He's been pretending on the outside to be at that level when he is not. It's not Yoda's job to invest in his emotional needs. As a Kinght, Anakin should be beyond that.

    Yoda understood in that moment that Anakin was wrestling with fear of loss over someone he's attached to. But again, the problem here lies with Anakin. He did not divulge the whole story and the severity of his attachment. Yoda's advice is right, for a Jedi. But again, Anakin is half Jedi, and secretly half 'regular person'. A square peg. He wanted the best of both worlds, but they don't mix. It was his responsibility to pick one.

    Sure, you could say Yoda only gave a boilerplate response to someone who was in distress, but as dagenspear alluded to; Anakin was never going to tell him the whole story (out of greed to be a Jedi and have a wife). Nor was Yoda ever going to give him the help he wanted; the power to stop death. So it was an impasse. The fault of which lies with Anakin's secrets, greed and fear, not any detachment from Yoda.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
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  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    But Yoda knows that Anakin has emotional issues. Anakin pretty much tells him this. He looks like a guy at the end of his rope in this scene. Yoda doesn't even ask who it is or if he can help. He does say "someone you know? but it's vague and clinical. He just gives the textbook answer. It's kind of in the Jedi's best interests to help Anakin. Not saying it's not Anakin's fault, but he does kind of cry out for help to Yoda.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  18. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I feel like though this has been covered to a point. kids are trained at a young age for a reason. its to learn how to control emotions as best they can. if every jedi had to go through PTSD that would make the Jedi a complete mess.

    And really the problem is even if Anakin had told Yoda the truth about Padme... what could Yoda do? Anakin is seeing the future and there isn't alot that can be done about death during childbirth. so if worst comes to worst, if it isn't possible to stop, for anakins own sanity, he would kinda need to learn to let go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  19. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Isn't the point though that having child would give you an attachment? one that will you will care deeply about. and all someone would have to do is kill your family to drive you over the edge. want to seek revenge. maybe even go to the dark side?

    From what i gather Anakin coud have left the jedi order at any time and been with Padme. the jedi wouldn't have executed him for leaving. but its about how to keep the jedi going without everyone being emotionally unstable family jedi.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
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  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    That is true. That probably could have been explained more, other than a "commitment not easily broken." What does this mean? How hard would it have been for Anakin to leave? One line could have explained this.
     
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 19, 2020
    Let's not forget that the Jedi also had a clear link (Jango Fett) between the Clone Army from Kamino and the Separatist movement (specifically Dooku) on Geonosis and chose to ignore that evidence. And before someone says they were busy with the war, we see random Jedi walking around the Jedi Temple in ROTS so they clearly had extra bodies to still perform investigations.
     
  22. Starith

    Starith Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 5, 2020
    The PT only added interest in the Jedi for me. All the different Jedi characters, the Order and its rules, Padawans, the Chosen One prophecy, the fact that there was a Jedi Temple and a Jedi Council. Lots of cool lore.
     
  23. Aah Fisto

    Aah Fisto Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 30, 2020
    I completely agree that Anakin could have been handled differently, but there seems to be a narrative amongst some of the fan base that none of it was Anakins fault, which I wholeheartedly disagree with
     
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He seeks Yoda's guidance and Yoda tells exactly what Anakin needed to hear, and tells him exactly what he needed to do to overcome his problem. Yoda is not vague or clinical (do you mean cynical?). He doesn't need to ask who it is Anakin is talking about. Because the reality is that it doesn't matter who it is. Anakin wants to act on things that are not happening. As he reveals to Yoda, he's talking about visions of the future, and he wants to act on them out of fear. Nothing else. Visions are possibilities, not realities. And even if Anakin was talking about a reality, that reality always needs to be dealt with rationally, not emotionally.

    The point is that Anakin needs to let go of his fear and attachments, which is the rightful counsel Yoda gives him. The fact that Anakin understands but is not willing to do it is his fault.
     
  25. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    The fact that Anakin was having multiple visions was a massive red flag. Anakin was responsible for his actions but the point of scenes like this is to further alienate Anakin from the Jedi. And I meant clinical. Anakin is coming at them from an emotional perspective and looks deeply troubled. Yoda did nothing wrong though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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