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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2020
    It doesn't help that lots of people use Clone Wars animated series as a proof to call Jedi Order as a "completely flawed order that is responsible for Anakin turning to the dark side."
     
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But the Jedi separate the Jedi to be from their parents/family at a very young age.
    Likely to prevent any attachment from ever forming between the child and their parents.
    So they take steps to prevent an emotion from being formed.

    Marriage, children and family is likewise banned for Jedi.
    If you are a Jedi and has been since you were an infant, that is your whole life.
    If you know that you can not marry, love someone or have kids while you are a Jedi. I would think that this would discourage people from pursuing and maybe even considering these options.
    If a Jedi gets to know a person and is attracted to them. If they know that this can never go anywhere, that they would get kicked out of the order if they go further. Then they could decide to not pursue these feelings any further.

    In TPM, Yoda gave a Prophet of Doom speech to Anakin about him missing his mother and being afraid to loose her. Very normal feelings for a kid his age and in his situation. But all Yoda could see was how bad things could happen. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
    To me, this was Yoda saying that Anakin simply being fearful of loosing his mother was bad.
    And they rejected him at first.

    So they didn't think that they could train Anakin to overcome this. Instead he would not become a Jedi.
    Obi-Wan even says that Anakin is dangerous. And yet he had quite normal emotions for a nine year old kid separated from their only parent. And this was a warning sign to the Jedi.

    To sum up,
    In the OT I saw the Jedi as saying, "Having loved ones and the emotions related to that is fine, just be aware that your feelings could get exploited."
    So it is ok to have those feelings but you must be able to control them.
    In the PT instead it seems to be "You must not have loved ones or the emotions associated with that."
    So instead of control instead emotions are to be restricted.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  3. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    Marriage isn't banned by the jedis.

    Ki Adi Mundi was married from what I remember.
     
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Yep.

    In LEGENDS he was allowed to be married (on paper) just so he could help propagate his dying species. I doubt he was actually in love with his wife. Plus I can't find anything in Disney Canon about any of that still being the case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  5. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    That's not said in the movies. The prequels have no pre-established bounds to make that what the jedi do. On the contrary, I think it has Yoda express similar structures.

    The prequels never have a character say that they can't have emotions or love. I think the main jedi show emotions and show caring for others. Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he loved him.
    The jedi themselves generally don't not attach to people. Obi-Wan shows an attachment to Qui-Gon and Anakin. He's never shamed for this caring like this and neither is Anakin for his for Obi-Wan or Palpatine. When he speaks on his feelings about Padme or his mom to Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan doesn't berate him for that. Yoda doesn't berate Anakin for caring about his mom in general.
     
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  6. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Marriage is forbid.

    That was only changed in non-canon EU/Legends with Luke’s New Jedi Order, Altisian Jedi, and Revan in The Old Republic getting a special dispensation to marry Bastila by the Jedi Council.
     
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  7. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    I remember that Obi Wan visited Anakin and Padme in a part of episode 3 off screen.(Padme told Anakin about it after Anakin woke up frok sleep.)

    So, I think Obi Wan knew about it.
     
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Padme says it.
    "Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi."
    Yes she is not a Jedi but she does have some idea about how they work.
    Anakin's response, to me, came across as him reinterpreting the rules so that he could pursue her even when he could not.
    Later, Padme says that she won't have Anakin giving up his future for her. Clearly saying that as long as Anakin is training to be a Jedi, they can not be together.
    Anakin suggest that they keep it a secret.
    If marriage and romantic relationships were totally fine then these lines makes no sense.

    To me, Yoda did berate Anakin for his feelings about his mother.
    Anakin had pretty normal feelings given his situation. He missed his mother and fear loosing her.
    But Yoda does not sound very understanding and instead he gives this dire warning about "Fear leads to anger" and all that. And Anakin is rejected at first. So his feelings were serious enough that he could not become a Jedi.

    At the start of AotC, Anakin talks how he'd rather dream of Padme and Obi-Wan warns him "Be mindful of your thoughts.." And he adds that Anakin has made a commitment to the Jedi order, one that is not easy to break.
    Again, if marriage and romantic feelings were totally ok, why would he say this?
    Plus the implication is that if Anakin wants to be with Padme, he can no longer be a Jedi.

    The Jedi order don't always practice what they preach. Yoda says you should rejoice for people when they die and you should not miss them or mourn them.
    Obi-Wan did look very happy when Qui-Gon died and they held a funeral for him. Which was a sombre affair.
    And this was another example of the Jedi banning emotions, missing and mourning. A Jedi must not do that.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Anakin suggests otherwise, when he tells her, "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden." He doesn't say love. No jedi in the movies tells him or eachother not to love or care.

    Marriage, if it is, forbidden to the jedi, I think wouldn't be about love or caring, but furthering attachment. I think that's what the jedi fear and why they have it as forbidden, if so, as a desire to discourage furthering that kind of attachment through marriage and such.
    I don't see what Yoda did as necessarily berating about his mom, but more about him dismissing his feelings about her in the situation (What has that got to do with anything?), when Yoda interprets his emotions as being afraid to lose her. More about Anakin not considering his emotions in the situation.

    Yoda not being understanding of Anakin's emotions is a different thing to me. One I think Yoda, even though I don't think he's a robot and such, can have. In theory, I think he understands the emotions, but doesn't always work on considering what Anakin may choose to do with them.

    I think it's not out of the question that he seeks to discourage Anakin from furthering his attachment and committing to something other than being a jedi.
    Yoda doesn't ban emotions in that moment, but gives advice to Anakin about his issues and gives him advice on why these emotions can cause problems. I think this is another situation of Yoda not understanding Anakin's situations.
     
  10. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I thought the Jedi did attach themselves to other people - namely those within the Order and to the Order itself.
     
  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    The LUCAS APPROVED teaser poster for AOTC says, "A jedi shall not know anger. Nor hatred. NOR LOVE."

    Please stop pretending that we're all just making this stuff up.
     
  12. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Great point. I love that poster.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  13. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think I said anyone was making something up, but pointed out what was said in the movies. No matter what a poster said or George said, the movie, I think not only does the movies not have that said by any of the jedi (even having Anakin tell Padme the rules, with attachment and possession), but doesn't present that through the characters, to me. Call that flaw in writers intention, from script to screen, or maybe that George approved the poster based on liking it or whatever, or he changed his mind from one concept to another, after approving it and it going through, or something else. But I think the movie doesn't have characters say or show, like that, what you're saying. Even though I'm not one to see what it says as building within the movies, and haven't seen the episode, I saw a video that had The Clone Wars footage where I think Obi-Wan says something along the lines that it's not wrong to have these emotions. If that's the case, and if Lucas approved the show?
    I think them attaching themselves to eachother a likely concept.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    So basically, you can say whatever you want regardless of what George Lucas himself said? Okay, I'm done here.
     
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  15. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I'm pointing out what the movies have had the jedi say, for the most part. The other thing was from TCW.

    Why was I notified that you're following me?
     
  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Am I not allowed to? I'm not entirely certain what it means to FOLLOW someone. I picked three people that I have banter with regularly just to see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    I've never followed anyone but it probably just means they can see where you are online. Sometimes friends do it. It doesn't mean he's in a tree outside your window. :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
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  18. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    The prequels didn’t ruin the Jedi....

    ....it just shows what the CT has been saying subtly....and that is the Sith is better than the Jedi.

    It made the Jedi old fashioned and obsolete while the Sith is where the cool things happen.

    The Dark Side is just more powerful. It takes two Jedi just to confront a Sith Apprentice. And what the Sith Master can do....the show stopper in all Trilogies!! From obliterating 4 Jedi Masters ...3 of them in seconds while the last one right after USING HIM TO finally turn ANAKIN and to have a valid reason for Order 66 ....is a masterpiece for any villain. Not even the most powerful Jedi Yoda could stop him.

    The CT has the Jedi in hiding so it’s only natural that the PT shows why the Jedi are in hiding.

    So it didn’t really ruin the Jedi because they are already ruined in the CT. The PT just reaffirms that the Sith is just the way to go.

    The ST puts the final nail in the coffin for the Jedi. The way Luke gave up in TLJ and the total winner at the end is actually Palpatine’s granddaughter Hahahaha Priceless!!!
     
  19. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    Didn't know Palpatine had an account here.
     
  20. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I didn't think you'd want to. I didn't get the impression you were particularly happy at the end of this discussion.
     
  21. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 27, 2014
    Well said Darth Sidious.
     
  22. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Even Darth Sidious managed to screw up in his own way. Which goes to show that regardless of one's moral compass, it's easy to make mistakes.
     
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  23. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

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    Apr 27, 2014
    The Jedi and the Sith are like a never ending tug of war that never goes anywhere. The only hope is for them to become one, to become the Jed’aii, to bring balance to the Force.
     
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  24. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    If they join forces, it changes nothing. Those who want to take over the universe will still try and those who want to stop them will try to.
     
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  25. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Ah but if the Jedi and Sith were one, they wpuld harness the power of Light and Dark to fight those who want to rule the galaxy. They’d have right balance of temperance and temper, peace and passion, diplomancy and agressive negotiations.