PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

Doesn't Qui Gon take a blood sample from Anakin?

 

Yes, Qui Gon sent a blood sample to Obi Wan back on the ship. He told Anakin he was checking his blood for infections. Obi Wan compares the number of midichlorians in the sample to those found in Yoda's blood. Nowhere does it say that the force is found in anyone's blood and it's never said that regular people have zero midichlorians. The films also do not say that the midichlorians talk to anyone or that they represent the will of the force. To Lucas they were a marker that represented the aptitude everyone has in developing the force to a stronger or weaker extent.

The high number comparison between Yoda and Anakin was meant to be a tangible way to demonstrate why Qui Gon was so convinced about a 9 year old kid's potential in the force ie: why QG was referring to the prophecy.

Midichlorians as a concept didn't bother me. I don't need to hear Obi Wan's count, or Shaak Ti's in order to understand they were powerful force users and of course they were not related to Anakin Skywalker.

 

QUI-GON: Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

 

Exactly. The midichlorians serve as a symbiote or connection between living beings and the Force. But . . . they did not represent "the will of the Force".

 

According to Qui-Gon the force tells the medichlorians what to tell the person. Nothing in any of the other eight saga films ever says this is incorrect so I have to assume it's true. Qui-Gon tells Anakin that the medichlorians tell force users the will of the force.

"They (meaning medichlorians) continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

 

Didn't remember that part. Possibly because I didn't take it literally regarding it speaking to a Jedi in the way I interpreted the initial post.

 

Midichlorians were made because some people made the wrong assumption that "The amount of Force you can use is completely related to how much you believe in it." Which is completely wrong.

By that logic Han could become a Jedi after Vader force pulled his blaster.(Since that would make him start to believe in the force.)

There is a reason that why Han never became a Jedi even in the EU stories before the release of Prequels. Because from the beginning, the force sensitivity was related to the blood of the person.

 

Except this is wrong.
Early on Lucas had the idea that everyone could do it.

So back then Lucas had quite different ideas than what actually happened.
For ex there is this bit about Yoda;

Other early ideas was that certain aliens species were better at using the Force because their brains were different.

As for faith, it is pretty consistent part of Luke's training that he has to let go of his preconceived notions.
He has to have faith. He tried to lift the X-Wing but didn't have faith that he could, so he failed.
He didn't think he could fight without being able to see.
Force and belief is talked about together quite often.
Like;
VADER I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Or;
LUKE You don't believe in the Force, do you?

So in using the Force, having faith in it is needed.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

All ideas change a lot from concept phase. Luke Skywalker was originally going to be Luke Starkiller. It's not a big deal.

I'm sure George chose the "Force sensitivity depends on the blood." during the development of TESB.(Since Yoda tells Luke that "The force is strong in your family.")

Because it was more consistent with the story of OT. Since if "everyone could be a Jedi" then Obi Wan and Yoda would just train the new generation of Jedis in exile to prepare to fight the Sith.(Obi Wan could teach Luke's friends to be Jedis.)

That idea of Han not believing the force was due to this that the Jedis were extinct and were becoming like a Myth. I think that was the whole point of that dialogue.

 

I figured that midichlorians, or other markers noted in the Jedi Academy trilogy books, are physical indications of potential Force abilities. However, they're not a clear indication of true Jedi powers, since training and commitment are also a part of it. For a real world analogy, you could have all of the physical ability to be the greatest baseball pitcher in the game's history. But if you don't like baseball, and have no interest in it, that physical ability doesn't matter. Thus, no matter how many midichlorians you have, if you just plain don't believe in the Force it's not a factor.

 

Again no, the quote from Lucas is from 1981, when he and Kasdan were doing RotJ.
So after ESB, he still had this idea that everyone can do it.
And in ESB Yoda does not say that the Force is strong in Luke's family, he just says that Luke's father was a powerful Jedi.

Han says that he has flown all over the galaxy and seen a lot of strange stuff but he does not have any faith in the Force. Because he is a cynical character, not because the Jedi are no more. Besides, Order 66 was about 18 years prior to ANH so Han would have the chance to see a Jedi.
He changes a bit over the films. He says to Luke in ANH "May the Force be with you."

As for what Yoda and Obi-Wan could have done, their "plan" falls apart if you look at it too closely.
After ANH, Luke and Leia are now both targets for Vader/The Empire. Even with not knowing who Leia is, she is a wanted person and her life is in danger.
And Luke and Leia are together for three years.
What was Yoda and Obi-wan doing during that time?
Why wait three years during which both their last hopes could die if the Empire finds them?
And Yoda complains that Luke is too old, well if you called him right away after ANH, he would be three years younger so you have yourself to blame here Yoda.
And them being so casual about letting Leia die when she is the only other hope also raises questions.
Of course the answer there is that Leia wasn't the sister when ANH and ESB were made.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I seriously doubt Han had the chance to see the Jedi in action. He grew up poor, orphaned at an early age, and surrounded by crooks on Corellia. There was a limited number of Jedi, and from the look of things they weren't in the habit of upholding justice in Han's neighborhood. Add that to his cynicism and what I'd call lapsed idealism, and I'm sure he'd respond to tales of the mystical, powerful Jedi with a sarcastic, "Yeah, right." And I don't think he was a true believer in the Force in ANH. He probably wished Luke, "May the Force be with you," since Luke was a friend and it would mean something to him, plus the ANH radio adaptation showed Han was deeply worried about Luke going into fighter combat. It'd take a while before Han would truly believe, in his way.

 

Yes, concepts are developed at the very beginning, but not half way through a story after you've set the rules. I loathe retconning, especially when it explicitly contradicts things that have been previously set in stone. It makes for a complete mess on a massive scale, where the plot and characters don't know what the hell they're doing.

 

That's exactly the point I made in the OT forum. One moment Yoda's calling Leia an expendable "friend", the next he tells Obi-Wan that she's their only hope if Luke fails to rescue her? Uhh?????? That's retconning at its worst, where it totally screws up continuity of things that were said in previous movies. One moment she's just a friend who can be sacrificed, and the next the very same character's saying they need her! That don't make any sense!

 

For me, I never really had that much of a preconception of the Jedi prior to the PT besides 'heroic dudes with lightsabers'. As such, I don't necessarily mind the prequel depiction, though I can kind of see where some of the complaints come from--the 'no attachments' thing makes more sense the way it's explained in the written script, for instance, but in the movie it's explained kind of clunkily. Midichlorians I'm not hung up on, but I can also see why some consider them unnecessary.

However, for me it's largely vindicated by Matt Stover's solidly done ROTS novelization--wherein, at the very end of his duel with Sidious, Yoda realizes that the Jedi, well-meaning they were, stagnated, and the Sith adapted and thus outplayed them. So while the Order ultimately meant well and had heroic individuals among them, it being flawed is part of the whole tragedy of the story.

 

The way you're describing things doesn't make any sense. It's a micharacterization of what the movie shows us and it's completely missing the point and context of what Yoda is saying.

Luke was acting on fear, arrogance and emotions instead of logic and reason. And Yoda is not saying that his friends (or anybody else) are expendable, but that he should let go of his fear and attachment, and he should be ready to accept their fate, whichever it might be (and which nobody knows what it is). He should let go, be patient and act (if needed) when he's ready. Instead of acting on his fears, emotions and assumptions.

He acted on his fear of loss and therefore he failed. He didn't rescue anybody, he almost got himself killed. Instead of saving his friends, they were the ones that ended up saving him.

 

Luke: "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

Yoda: "If you honour what they fight for, yes..."

Looks like he was calling them expendable to me, including their only other hope. Then again, at the time those lines were written Leia wasn't "The Other" and she was just a friend of Luke's. But by making her "The Other" in ROTJ it makes his reasoning a bit schizo. One moment he's saying that Luke should sacrifice her in favour of his training, the next he's saying that she's extremely valuable to their cause!

 

He's not calling anyone expendable. He's saying that if he honors what they fight for, then he should let go of his attachment for them and not give into fear. He doesn't own or control Han and Leia. He can't constantly live in fear of what might happen to them. He can't abandon his duty and responsibilities because he fears they might be in danger.

It has nothing to do with who it is that Luke fears for. It could be the (second) most important person in the galaxy, it doesn't matter. The point is that Luke is acting on his fear when he needs to let go, be patient, finish his training and only then act if needed.

 

On the contrary, I'd say Luke's actions did save them, though not in the way he expected. If Luke had stayed away and cut off his attachment to them, it's certain Vader would've decided to, or been ordered to, cut his losses. Thus, Leia & Chewie are executed and Threepio is destroyed. On the other hand, Luke's arrival leads to Vader pretty much losing interest in the captives and ordering them away, which gave Lando the chance to spring them. Yes, Luke got badly beaten, but that was needed, as well. It gave him a good dose of humility, showed him that the truth of his past was still being hidden from him, and led to his ultimate realization of how to save his father from the Dark Side.
Staying on Dagobah and letting his friends suffer might still have led to ultimate victory against Palpatine, but it would've cost Luke his soul in the process. That, rather than the contrivance in TLJ, would've been far more likely to lead Luke to renounce the Jedi for good.

 

That's far from being a certainty. Leia and Chewie were not in danger, Vader picked Han alone to torture in order to attract Luke. And if it didn't work, Vader wasn't going to kill Han anyway, since he had a bounty on his head and Boba was waiting for Vader to return him back alive.

The only demand Vader made regarding Leia and Chewie was that they were never to leave Cloud City.

The reality is that only Han's fate was at stake and he was only going to be given away to Boba when Vader had Luke.

So Luke went there, he didn't save Han or anyone else, almost got himself killed and had to be rescued instead.

 

As for the original question, I don't think the PT ruined the Jedi. Rather, it showed how such a good and powerful group could've been all but wiped out with no one really objecting or even remembering.
I consider Qui-Gon, the righteous rebel, to be the best of the PT Jedi. He respects Jedi traditions, but not at the cost of caring for individuals. He follows the law, but knows when and how far to bend them to see justice done. He follows the Force, not bureaucracy, and lets it guide him in protecting the innocent. When he's gone, the Jedi lose focus, and get caught up in a war they shouldn't be fighting for a villain they should've recognized, while letting themselves forget just who they're supposed to be protecting and caring for.
Fortunately, by the end of the OT, Luke has gained the insight Qui-Gon had, and thus knows how to balance both the big and small pictures through the Force. He can care for people and have attachments, but not let it overwhelm him. That's where I think the Jedi used to be, and where they returned to.

 

I seriously doubt Palpatine would allow Leia & Chewie to stay under house arrest on Bespin. He's trying to run an Empire and put down a rebellion. He's certainly not going to let two of the Alliance's great heroes to just sit in a nice, comfy cell for the duration. More likely, he'll tell Vader, "Luke's not coming. Kill those blasted criminals at once, and get back to work." Not in danger? Oh, come now.
As for Han, that's a separate matter. If it were up to Vader and Palpatine, Han's head would've been on Traitor's Gate with Leia & Chewie's. But, Vader made a deal, so Han goes to Jabba. He's still in danger (Jabba could've easily had that carbonite block blasted to pieces), but Luke can only focus on one rescue at a time.
In the annotated screenplay book, it's noted that, in the original TESB script, Luke was going to go back and finish his training and let the others rescue Han, citing that duty to the Jedi came first. Irvin Kershner rightly objected, saying that Luke walking away from Han would've made him look awful and ungrateful to the audience. So, it was changed so Luke would immediately focus on saving Han as soon as he recovered from his injuries. Luke's not a cold-hearted so-and-so who'll overlook his friends' suffering and leave them to their fate, hiding behind Jedi philosophy. That's why he was able to ultimately save the day for his friends, his father, and the galaxy.

 

Not in danger, yes, not in the sense we were talking about. If they were meant to be killed, Vader would have said so instead of ordering for them to never leave Cloud City. He doesn't owe anything to Lando, there was nothing preventing him from doing that.

 

They were there as bait. If they had ceased to be needed as bait, then they were no longer of any use to Vader. Thus, do you really believe a pragmatist like Vader would let them live? They were on the Most Wanted list. They would be executed as soon as possible. Palpatine would've demanded it. And Luke would never have recovered from rejecting them.

 

I also wonder why Fett didn't take Chewbacca as well. In ROTJ, it's a major part of the Jabba plot that he's got a bounty as well, so surely Fett wouldn't leave him behind on Bespin? Unless, that is, that was yet another continuity breaking retcon in ROTJ?