PT Did Tyrannus himself know that his Master was the Chancellor?

Or his last thought before Anakin relieves him of his head. He looks up at Palpatine and realizes to himself "treachery is the way of the Sith."

 

I mean I've always thought it was kind of weak to say that the way to explain stuff from these films can only really be found in a book or a comic or some other part of the expanded universe. The films really are the main source for this stuff, so if Lucas chose to keep this ambiguous as far as the films go, it seems like there is a reason for that. I am not saying that the novelization is not canon. It just sort of seems weird to say the definitive answer to this question about the Prequel Trilogy films can be found in a book.

 

Lucas didn't keep it ambiguous.



This is your evidence to know that he did know the truth. Ask yourself these questions three.

1. Why would Palpatine not tell him? He's going to need to get him on board with his plan, since he needs an Apprentice and scapegoat.

2. Why would Dooku join him without knowing who he was? Especially since he's not a coward like Nute and the others. Not to mention that he tells Anakin who he is and Maul was raised by him, so he would know. So, why would Dooku not know?

3. Why would he be surprised at hearing Palpatine tell Anakin to execute him? Isn't the Chancellor supposed to be corrupt enough to want someone like him dead as it is?

 

I wouldn't make any sense for Dooku to go along with the Clone plot without knowing Sidious' role in proceedings. Otherwise why would he buy an army to support his enemies? That only benefits Palpatine.

 

Okay, then where is it explicitly stated in the films that Dooku knew Palpatine was Sidious?

 

Because his master told him to. Sith apprentices do what their masters tell them to do.

 

But Dooku would still think that contradictory to the Sith plans, no? He's funding a massive clone army for his droids to fight, with no rhyme or reason. It only works if he knows Palpatine is exploiting both sides.

 

It works if he knows that Sidious is working both sides. That does not require him to know that Sidious is Palpatine. It is theoretically enough for him to know that Sidious controls the Republic and, maybe, controls Palpatine as well.

 

Why does it have to be explicitly stated?

But why would he follow him, if didn't know who he was? Why does Palpatine reveal himself to Anakin? He admits that he is Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord that they've been looking for. If he does that for him, why wouldn't he do it for Dooku? Remember, he tells Anakin in order to gain his full confidence and trust. You don't think that Dooku wouldn't want those same reassurances?

 

Is speculating on character motivations really necessary when we have this?

 

It's doesn't NEED to be explicitly stated, but without that it really is left intentionally ambiguous in the films. That's all I am saying.

As for why he revealed himself to Anakin, that's a point that can be debated at length with all sorts of interesting thoughts and ideas. But we ultimately don't know if he did that for Dooku or not. He tells Anakin because that's what he had to do for Anakin to trust the dark side, because he'd spent 12 years building Anakin's trust in him as Palpatine. He had to "transfer" Anakin's trust over to him as Sidious. With Dooku, we don't see his turn, we don't see what led up to it, so we don't really know what Sidious did or didn't do. And it would be entirely speculation based on what's in the films. Which is fun fan discussion, but not really what I am getting at with my question in this thread.

 

He would still have to earn Dooku's trust. The man isn't going to turn against a lifetime of training to join the enemy and not know who he is. And he wouldn't be shocked when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him. Lucas didn't leave it ambiguous. You just conclude it is, because he doesn't appear with his hood off around him and isn't addressed by his public name.

 

No, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Something not being explicitly stated doesn't mean it's ambiguous.

Dooku knows Palpatine's face and he has been face to face with Darth Sidious. None of this is ambiguous.

He knows the two are one and the same. Besides, their whole secret plot relies on that fact.

 

In the novel Labyrinth of Evil,or the ROTS novelization - I forget which - Grevious and Dooku talk about the plan to kidnap Palpatine, and Grevious wants to just kill Sheev once they have him, while Dooku insists that absolutely not one hair on his head be damaged. And in the movie novelization , Dooku is talking to Palpatine in the General's quarters about the plan and how he (Dooku) thinks they would be better off tempting Obi-Wan with Sith apprenticeship rather than Anakin. If he didn't know Palps was his Master, then he would have not been discussing these things with him.And I swear there's a line where once they sense Anakin and Kenobi on the elevator, the book says something like the figure in the chair changed it's voice and look from that of Darth Sidious to the kindly form of Chancellor Palpatine.

 

I find your statement odd. My first post on this thread provides evidence that movie subtly let's you know that Dooku is aware of the truth.

 

Good post. Let’s not underestimate the ability of high level Force users to discern that which can’t be detected with the senses.

 

Easy giveaway tbh.

 

Of course he knew. I thought almost everyone in the audience above the age of 6 did as well. Honestly surprised that even some older SW fans had no clue. How much more obvious could Lucas possibly have made it?

 

Dooku is the one who told Obi-Wan. What'd you think that was, a random guess that coincidentally turned out to be accurate?

 

While I personally don't think this, he could've been lying to manipulate obi-wan or something, or been telling a situation as he thought it. In theory, he could think Palpatine is somehow being manipulated by Sidious. In theory. I personally think he knew and was trying to turn Obi-Wan by telling him what was going on, so they could kill Sidious/Palpatine. I think his look when Palp gives the order to Anakin to kill him suggests that (to me, a look of 'i've been betrayed'), along with him essentially controlling the senate.

 

George admitted as much (interviews for ROTS), it's confirmed in Legends, and it might be confirmed somewhere in canon material.
Tyranus would pretty much have to know. He's the leader of a powerful government that seeks to control many systems and likely the galaxy as a whole. Sidious has no real motivation to hide his Palpatine identity from his apprentice.
No one else really knew, though. Grievous didn't, as far as we know. Mas Amedda knew, and I think Sly Moore did as well. Until ROTS and beyond, really no one else knew Sidious was Palpatine.

 

Actually, he didn't know about Darth Sidious until ROTS. Not that it makes much of a difference.

 

Where does Lucas state this?

In TCW season 5, Mas is present when Palpatine tells him he's taking a secret trip to Mandalore - which, since there's no way a normal politician would go to a war zone alone, seems like a hint that Mas is in on the Sidious secret.

 

Mas's lack of reaction to Sidious's powers and appearance alone would suggest this, but TCW does back it up.

Not to mention in AOTC, with the way he says, "If only Senator Amidala were here." Very deliberate.

 

Palpatine only tells him to have his ship ready, nothing more.

And Filoni confirmed it in one of the ForceCast/Rebel Force Radio episodes (IIRC, it was in reference to the ending of Pursuit of Peace) that when he asked George, he said that Mas Amedda wasn't in the know about his Sith identity. He does know about Palpatine's political machinations and that he's not the "kind, old man" that he sometimes pretends himself to be, but he doesn't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord.