CT Did Vader/Anakin actually deserve forgiveness?

kylo waves from the ST... i deserved forgiveness and redemption too if my Grandfather did.
The power of forgiveness can only be sought by those he killed not the fourth wall audience. Vader atoned, Luke forgave him but it was only Luke not everyone else

 

Not just the adults. But the snakes spiders, chickens roosters and cows.

 

We may assume that Kenobi and Yoda also forgave him, since they're by his side at the end of ROTJ. But, you're correct that, on-screen, there's no indication that anyone else did, so far as I can tell. But, that's understandable, since (again, on-screen) only Luke & his mentors knew the full story.

 

Forgiving someone is just the act of no longer feeling anger toward them. It has nothing to do with the other persons mindset. Luke forgives his father. Whether Anakin is worthy of that forgiveness is irrelevant. And I think that's why the movie resonates so well with people is because the film doesn't ask you to forgive Darth Vader; it only asks that you understand why Luke does.

Vader is put into larger than life circumstances and Luke gets a taste of that so he understands where his father is coming from.

And my personal opinion on the matter. Anakin is too much a ****head in the PT for me to even want to see him be forgiven, let alone redeemed. I was more accepting of Darth Vader before the PT, not after.

 

Anakin/Vader is a selfish, petulant, narcissistic brat who thinks only about himself and for himself. Over five movies, amid all of the atrocities he's committed or been complicit in, only once does he do anything selfless. His mother passes away, and instead of mourning her loss and honoring her memory of him, he has a tantrum and makes it about him and what he did to the sand people. He has visions of Padme dying, so he turns to the Sith, not to save her for her, but because he cannot live without her. This is about as self centered as one can get. Everything he does is for his own glory and the recognition that goes with it. He is everything that goes against not only being a Jedi, but just being a decent person. Now add all of the atrocities he has committed or been complicit to, and he should be looked upon as an embodiment of evil. I hate to imply there should be a cost for redemption, but simply dumping Palps to save his son, it sure feels Vader got off easy in that department. Forgiveness from his son is one thing, but redemption from the force after everything felt cheap and unearned.

 

As I posted earlier, he was also electrocuted (twice), suffered multiple dismemberments, was immolated, was left with permanent disabilities, and ultimately died. We may debate whether or not he deserves forgiveness, but he certainly didn't get a walk. And the most tragic thing about Ani's situation is that he was thinking of others, and wanted to do the right thing. Three years of service fighting for the Republic, alongside his fellow Jedi, is evidence of that. But, like a great many others, he got caught up in "the end justifies the means", gave in to his baser instincts, and did horrible things in the name of making things "right", for which he was certainly responsible, which he accepted in the end. And his redemption was, indeed, unearned, hence my earlier use of "grace" in the equation.

 

The way I see it, Luke not striking down Vader, trying to save Vader, and being happy that Anakin was able to turn away from darkness in the end =/= Luke forgiving Vader

Btw, this is why I think it would have been interesting to keep Kylo Ren alive, so that we can deal with his 'redemption' differently to Vader, if we actually got to see how the universe would deal with a madman (and especially interesting down the line if they needed to turn to him for help).

 

He killed a bunch of kids. So probably not

 

You're both valid in your opinions.

 

If they had done that, I'd have liked to see him go to Ach To, where Ani's Force ghost, who would certainly understand his situation, would try to guide him back to the right path. Then I see him heading off to parts unknown as a nameless, pastless figure trying to stay on that right path. I suppose that could work. And I agree that his and Ani's situations are different, and thus one's fate doesn't necessarily mandate the other's.

 

There's galactic justice. There would be for both Vader and Kylo. I always here this "Kylo could self isolate and atone for his actions." No. They are both war criminals of the worst kind. Both would spend the rest of their lives in the spice mines of Kessel or some prison. Death is the only way for them to have any kind of peaceful closure.

 

Kylo winds up on Earth and is responsible for the song, All Along the Watchtower or something.

 

Nope. He made his bed ... let him lie in it.

 

This has become a wonderful multi-layered discussion. Thank you all! @devilinthedetails I read your entire post, I swear. Haha. I see your point about Vader being akin to other tragic characters whose falls from grace are what make them interesting. In that sense, Vader could be a cautionary tale of getting too attached to those in your life and simply not being able to let go of things even when it's in your best interest to do so.

That said, I think Luke showed that there's nothing wrong with caring about others as a Jedi. You just have to do it in a healthy way. Where Anakin went wrong in this respect is that he thought he could hold on to those he lost, and built up fear and anger when he couldn't. He got a raw deal in many respects, but he could have chosen to step in a different direction several times. Obi-Wan tried time and again, but Anakin didn't listen.

Back to forgiveness, if he had survived after the Death Star, there is no doubt he would have had to face Republic justice, or go on the run with Luke. His crimes would no doubt warrant severe punishment. In that respect, lawful forgiveness would not be an option, but Luke showed grace in letting go of his anger for what his father had done and forgiving him.

 

I don't particularly like how the Jedi in the PT have these weird strict rules concerning which emotions are valid and which aren't and how certain mindsets can lead to the dark sides and yada, yada, yada. I think Lucas himself doesn't fully understand the exact message he was trying to get across and things with Anakin get muddy, but the one thing I do like is that Anakin isn't just a product of (what one could perceive as) unhealthy and fundamentally flawed views about life from the Jedi. And what I mean is that Anakin doesn't just want to be able to do normal things, as opposed to the Jedi stating that a Jedi has to be limiting under certain conditions, Anakin wants to be able to keep people from dying and all these other otherworldly types of abilities. It makes it seem like he isn't just rebelling against the Jedi doctrine, he's rebelling against reality in general. I'm not sure if Lucas intended that, and I'm not even an overall fan of the PT in general, but it is interesting to see.

Because Anakins turn to the dark side could have just been, "I want a normal life as opposed to these strict rules about all these little mundane aspects of my life" but instead it's like he wants to go off into the other extreme. Which, admittedly, is what I dislike about the PT; the fact that Lucas decided that, in this galaxy far, far away, morality and ethics can be codified. But it's still interesting to watch even if I feel it makes the characters hard to relate to.

 

Considering the Jedi essentially are a religious sect, codifying morality seems par for the course in Star Wars. Your point about Anakin rebelling against reality is an interesting one considering the world of Star Wars as well. Palpatine mentions Darth Plagueis to Anakin, and considering that supernatural force powers exist in Star Wars, it doesn't sound like a stretch that he would be able to bring people back to life, or at least believe it's possible.

I'm not sure if Lucas ever ironed out what the Jedi's beliefs and codes of conduct actually are. Maybe, like many religions, they're vague guidelines that sound good when put on a page, but that raise serious questions once you start looking deeper into them. I feel Lucas would have done well to read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, if he didn't. I essentially view the ideal Jedi as Aurelius and other classical stoics described the ideal human: living in the present, not seeking superficial honours, living for others, accepting death as inevitable and natural, treating others the way they deserve to be treated, and doing everything with gratitude and love.

It's the love part that Lucas missed, or perhaps didn't think deeply enough about.

 

The Jedi codifying morality isn't the issue because you can always chaulk them up to just simply being mistaken like any real world religious sect. Lucas codifying morality is where I have the issue. This man has talked ad nauseum about how morality works in Star Wars. In the real world, everything is a gray area, but it's not in Star Wars. In Star Wars, morality is like a mathematical problem that can be worked out. It's very odd and cold.

I worded this aspect of what I was saying poorly. I didn't mean otherworldly for Anakin, but more otherworldly for the audience. I guess what I'm saying is, regardless of the fantastical environment, in the OT we have a real-world equivalence of what our heroes want. Luke wants an end to fascism and for his father to turn away from evil. That's a real world thing. Anakin wants Padme to live forever. That's not a real world thing so it's harder for me to relate to Anakin.

If, in ROTS, Anakin wasn't having force visions of Padme dying and was instead just having general worries about the Clone Wars carrying on for too long and Anakin wanted to bring about an Empire because he could use the Empire to protect Padme, that would be a real world goal that I can relate to. Not agree with, but relate to. Anakin wanting to find a mystical ability to cheat death isn't something I can relate to.

 

Thanks for clarifying! I haven't watched the prequels in a very long time, as they weren't exactly my favourite movies in the world. Now that I've finished watching The Clone Wars and have read some of the new canon books set in the same time period, though, I think I'd like to go back and re-watch them. I do remember not feeling a sense of connection to Anakin, though. He was generally unlikeable in the films from my recollection. Or just a dork, like he was in the scene in the flower fields. But this is perhaps a topic for a different thread. Thanks for the discussion either way!

 

He certainly didn't. It was obvious that Tarkin had authority over Vader.

From the conference room: "Enough of this! Vader, release him!"
A direct order. And he called him Vader. Not Lord Vader.

After the Falcon has been allowed to escape: "... I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work."
Again he calls him Vader, and issues a thinly veiled threat.

Alderaan is definitely down to Tarkin.

 

I think the more relevant question is: did Vader atone for his actions. The answer (especially from a Christian perspective) is certainly no. As for forgiveness, to qoute Unforgiven, "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

 

I figured Vader knew that Palpatine's lightning would kill him when he attacked, and that he felt remorse for all his crimes -

and as such, "doing something right, that will cost him his own life" is his own attempt at atonement.

 

I figure at that point, Vader was more an Enforcer, but Palpatine told him to obey anything Tarkin does. Only after the top brass is killed on Death Star 1 does Vader become the killing machine we all know and love..

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Canonically, Tarkin does not outrank Vader. I believe he was originally written to, but outside the context of the first movie that pretty much makes no sense at all. The two have a mutual respect for each other. "Release him" and "This had better work," were firm statements, not demands. Stuff that Tarkin was not afraid to say, because he knows Vader respects his judgment. And Vader followed by choice, not because he had to.

A video about it if anyone is interested



I don't think any of this really disproves the point of "blowing up Alderaan was Tarkin's doing," though... as he seems to have still been in charge of the Death Star and Vader didn't really have a say in it at all. So perhaps my original argument has no merit

And you said "authority" not "outrank" so... yeah I'm shutting up now.