CT Did Vader/Anakin actually deserve forgiveness?

That fits with most later Legends and Newcanon work - with Vader's obedience being not a matter of rank, but of Palpatine's instructions - when on the Death Star (and only on the Death Star) do what Tarkin says, to keep things running smoothly.

Earlier material, however, did paint ANH-era Vader as Tarkin's henchman, rather than the Emperor's - even after ROTJ came out. It wasn't till quite late, that the situation on the Death Star was painted as "Vader and Tarkin are equals, but Vader, for diplomatic reasons, obeys Tarkin".

 

Most casual fans don't read the EU. I certainly don't.

 

I always assumed Tarkin ran things/had justistiction on the Death Star, which is where most of ANH takes place for Vader. He does seem to respect Tarkin.

 

Whose forgiveness did Anakin need?

Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan and Yoda and that's what is important, whether your average audience member forgives him is irrelevant to the story.

 

I am not aure Leia has forgiven hi., or ever will

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It's never shown on-screen, though it might be inferred from the way she behaves towards Kylo/Ben in the ST. In the old EU, it took years before she even acknowledged that, maybe, there was more to Vader than she suspected. See the novel Tatooine Ghost for a very good story on how she slowly is able to look at the situation differently.

 

I needed this this morning. Thank you.

 

It isn't important for the audience to forgive Anakin, it's important for Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan and Yoda to forgive him. If they can forgive him after all he's done, who are the audience to disagree?

 

I think one thing to keep in mind is that in Star Wars, regular Dark Side use is addictive and influences your actions to a great degree, so it isn't the same as a character in our world committing the same acts, it is essentially a fairy tale after all. I don't think Anakin is forgiven by anyone really, Luke simply believes that there is good again, allows him to break free of Palpatine's hold and save his son. Anakin is redeemed from his dark journey, but had he lived he would have been either executed or imprisoned for an eternity, death was really his way of paying for everything he did.

 

I agree. It is the perfect ending really. There isn't really a forgiveness shown, but there is a mutual acknowledgment before Vader pays the ultimate penalty. He is free from the dark side, but not free from his part in it. He is resigned to the 'justice' that is then served to him, his death. That he is then shown as restored to his former nature in the light side of the Force is just a wonderful conclusion.

 

In the EU novel The Truce at Bakura, there's a great moment where Anakin's force ghost appears to Leia and asks for forgiveness. She doesn't grant it and is understandably hostile to him.

Anakin even ridiculously warns her not to give into her anger. Coming from him, even as a force ghost, I found that particularly rich.

 

If you look at forgiveness in the Christian sense, the offender's actions are not what matters. What matters is what's in the person's heart. Some actions are simply unforgivable from a 'squaring the ledger' standpoint, but everyone is forgivable in the eyes of God. Maybe the Force is the same?

 

If we see the Jedi as truly good then the possibility of forgiveness and redemption should always remain.

 

This life, not the afterlife (that's out of anyone's control). The actual quote:

 

I literally said, "FORGIVING PEOPLE IN THE AFTERLIFE" so it's not like I wildly misquoted anyone. Plus the original question, "Did Vader/Anakin actually deserve forgiveness?" doesn't specify life or the afterlife. It sounds like you're trying to correct me, yet you're just repeating what I said back to me so I'm very confused.

 

Could he have not warned her to not give in to her anger because he learned his lesson and didn't want to see her go down that path?

I've made mistakes and many times have turned around and begged my daughter to not make the same ones.

 

I'm saying that forgiveness is given in life from the living, not in the afterlife which is out of anyone's hands. And as an addendum I posted the actual quote for those that would like to read it.

 

Says who?

 

The movies and the audience that the movies are for.

 

When did any of the movies state this? You're talking about concepts that are beyond our understanding like they're something from a math textbook. How can you speak about these things with certitude?

 

Concepts beyond our understanding?! These concepts are pretty simple and clear. It's the characters that are alive that get to show forgiveness. It's the audience that is alive that is receiving that message. The message of being selfless, compassionate and show forgiveness. That message is for the living, when they are alive.

 

Because from Leia's perspective, Anakin learns his lesson too little too late. He stood right there and watched Tarkin blow up her homeworld. He stood right there and oversaw the torture of herself and her friends and family. He helped the Emperor orchestrate the death of the Republic, the destruction of the Jedi, and the rise of the Empire. He caused untold suffering to billions and billions and he has the gall to tell her not to make the same mistake?

Yeah, because Leia is absolutely going to do all that if she 'gives in to her anger'.

Look, we've all made mistakes. We all want to warn our loved ones to not go down the same road we went through. However there's mistakes and there's... wow, yeah, everything Vader did.

 

Just becsuse Luke has forgiven him does not mean everyone else should

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No, everyone else should hold a grudge. That's exactly the lesson Lucas wanted to convey with Star Wars.

/s