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CT Did Yoda and Obi-Wan suspect Vader would reveal Luke's true parentage?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by jaimestarr, May 24, 2020.

  1. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I mean, they knew it was a possibility, right? Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  2. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Yoda and Obi-Wan did not expect Vader would reveal he is Luke's father. They think Anakin Skywalker is truly dead and don't see what advantage this information would give a Sith Lord.
     
  3. Ben-Solo

    Ben-Solo Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 19, 2017
    He did not if you look back at his and Luke’s conversation at the beginning of ROTJ; Yoda says it’s “unexpected” and also “unfortunate” implying that he feared Luke knowledge of this could tempt him further.

    Yoda... is Darth Vader my father [avoiding the subject] Rest I need. Yes. Rest. Yoda, I must know. If you know, tell me. Your father he is.

    Told you, did he?

    Yes. Unexpected this is. And unfortunate. Unfortunate that I know the truth No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. That... not ready for the burden were you.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  4. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    They should have told Luke. Yeah he wasn't ready and all, but this was a possibility they should have prepared him for. Plenty of time to do that when it became apparent he would leave. Better off hearing it in a swamp then in a duel with Vader.
     
  5. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I always assumed that Ben and Yoda would tell Luke about his father AFTER Luke had completed his training. The reason for this being that (again an assumption on my part) as far as Yoda and Ben are concerned, there is no coming back from the dark side. And I figured that they would instill this same belief in Luke. That way, once Luke is a full fledged Jedi, he will come to the understanding that his father is long gone and all that remains is something, "more machine now than man".

    I also thought this was going to play out more in the ST, explaining that Luke was able to break free from the Dogma of the old Jedi Order and start something new, something better.

    ...however, that did not happen.
     
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  6. Doompup

    Doompup Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2017
    Obi-wan and Yoda probably figured Vader would reveal it. I would think they weighed the options, and in the instance of Vader revealing it, there is a pretty good chance Luke wouldn’t believe him and would think he was lying. As opposed to if Obi-wan or Yoda revealed it, Luke would believe them and his emotions would be in greater turmoil and feel totally betrayed by them. Either way, Luke wasn’t ready for that revelation, so they took the chance they thought would help Luke survive the encounter.
     
  7. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2014
    Yoda says it was unexpected. I'm sure they had an inkling it could happen, but didn't think it would happen. I think the bigger question is if Yoda and Obi-Wan were aware that Vader knew he was Luke's father? Would Palpatine's revelation to Vader have made waves in the Force that Yoda and Obi-Wan would be able to sense that Vader now knows Luke is his son? If Yoda and Obi-Wan were aware, or were able to sense Vader knowing, then it would be rather shortsighted to not expect Vader to tell Luke. It would be an even more egregious error to not tell Luke themselves and chance Vader telling Luke.
     
  8. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    I think Yoda and Obi-Wan would have agreed that Luke learning that Vader is his father would be a part of Luke's journey towards becoming a Jedi. That it would have been a heavy hearted thing for Luke to learn straight from Vader, but necessary for Luke to develop the emotional strength and maturity to confront that reality and to become as prominent a Jedi as he was meant to become. I also think that, despite Anakin turning into Vader, at the end of the day, Anakin/Vader is still Luke's father. And that's a sacred bond that Yoda and Obi-Wan would have agreed to respect and not interfere with. It was simply not their place. That was for Luke and Vader alone to handle. Sure, maybe the manner that it happened was unexpected, which is what Yoda might have been referring to afterwards. But ultimately, there were three years between the events of ANH and ESB, and I think there very possibly could have been a communication between ghost Obi-Wan and Yoda about it and about them not interfering on that particular matter. It very well could have even been Yoda who manifested Vader in the cave on Dagobah as a way to prepare Luke for his inevitable confrontation, with that being the furthest he could have implied a connection to Vader beyond him being the arch villain who must be defeated. But that line of actually telling Luke was never crossed, and was for Luke to discover on his own.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  9. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    ESB seems to hint strongly that this is something Ben and Yoda are afraid of. But ROTJ contradicts this, with Yoda saying "Told you, did he. Unexpected this is, and unfortunate."

    Which doesn't make much sense, as Vader revealing his parentage to Luke ought to be pretty high on the list of possible scenarios for how he might try to turn Luke to the dark side.
     
  10. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't think either was happy that Vader had revealed his identity to Luke before they could. Even Yoda had said that this revelation was "unfortunate". I think too many people try to excuse Obi-Wan and Yoda's failure to tell Luke the truth about Vader.

    I have never agreed with that "more machine than man" description. I think it is so irrelevant. Whether he was a slave boy on Tatooine, a Jedi padawan, a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord, Anakin was always himself. Whether he was good, evil or both, he was Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader was nothing more than a title and a position. And Anakin's sense of self and spirit made him "human", not the lack of cybernetic parts, a respirator and a helmet.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I do not think this reasoning works.

    For one, they have lied or misled Luke about his father and Vader.
    Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader murdered his father.
    I is not a subject they have never talked about.
    So they have already interfered as it were.

    Second, Luke finding out in this manner almost broke him and it also shattered his trust in his masters, that they lied/hid this from him.

    I can not really see a benefit here.

    To the OP, not telling Luke is indeed head-scratching given what is happening.
    If Vader tells Luke, that might break him. If Vader says nothing and Luke pulls off the impossible and wins and kills Vader. What then?
    Would they go "Yeah, I know Vader, that you killed, he was sort of your father."
    I don't think that would have gone down well.
    Their actions becomes even more odd when Leia is the other hope.
    They tell Luke that he should sacrifice her, so they are cool about letting one of the two only hopes they have die.
    And when Luke is leaving, now BOTH hopes are soon in Vader's grasp.

    There is a way for this to make better sense and I have talked about this long ago in another thread.
    Vader is the father but he isn't Anakin.
    Anakin was married and Vader was Obi-Wan's pupil but unknown to everyone, Vader had an affair with Anakin's wife and Luke is his son, not Anakin's.

    This way, Obi-Wan could not have told Luke about Vader as he didn't know. And it also explains how Vader knew that Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke about him being his father. Because again Obi-Wan didn't know and thus could not say.
    It could even be that Palpatine does not know this.
    So when Vader makes the suggestion to turn Luke, Palpatine sees Luke as just a potential useful tool but is unaware of Vader's connection to him. And Vader is confident that he can use this both to turn Luke and also make sure that Luke sides with him and not Palpatine. So he has an edge over everyone, only he knows this.

    But this didn't happen and I doubt Lucas ever had that plan in mind.
    Just food for thoughts.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  12. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Or perhaps Vader was a clone of Anakin created by the Jedi Council in case one of their most important warriors fell during the Clone Wars. That seems like an idea that Lucas toyed with for a while- and which Timothy Zahn may have used as the basis for Joruus C'Baoth (who Zahn originally envisioned as an insane clone of Obi-Wan).
     
  13. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Or . . . regardless of whether he was a Jedi Knight, a slave boy or a Sith Lord - good or evil - Anakin Skywalker was Anakin Skywalker. A change in moral compass does not change a person's identity.

    This is a theory of yours?o_O

    Why do you doubt that?
     
  14. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Whether it was intentional or not, that look Alec Guinness gives when Luke asks what happened to his dad always read to me that Obi-Wan just didn't have it in him to tell Luke the truth.

    And in my younger years I always thought Ben was a bit of an a** when he used his "certain point of view" excuse in ROTJ, but now that I'm older I see it as less of a, "This is just how I see things" and more of a, "I have to tell myself this so I don't collapse into tears over my monumental failure."

    This new understand of Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" line also explains (at least to me) why Luke doesn't get upset and call him out on his BS. Luke is mature enough to not resort to anger and instead just sort of pities Obi-Wan.
     
  15. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Luke falling/leaping into a chasm after hearing that Vader is his father tells me that they should have told Luke the truth before this.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    There's a lot to unpack in TESB. I mean, should Luke have even gone to Bespin in the first place? Should Obi-Wan have lied to Luke in ANH? Should Yoda have perpetuated that lie? In ROTJ, Yoda flat out tells Luke that he wasn't ready for the burden of it yet. And maybe Yoda was right about that. In real world terms, at what point do you tell the American G.I. fighting in WWII that his real dad is Adolf Hitler?
     
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