CT Discrepancy between Vader's remorse and his loyalty to the dark side

One thing is not clear to me. Deep down, Vader regrets his actions and is full of self-loathing. Yet he is also totally convinced of the dark side, so much so that he even wants to pull his son over to that side. How can this be right together?

And further: Why does he hate then the Emperor so much? Sure, he used him, but he also showed him the power of the dark side, which Vader likes so much. Isn't he also a bit grateful to the Emperor?

 

Well, my take is, when he lost everything, a continued quest for power and domination was his only remaining solace. You might say it helps him bury the pain and regret. There's nothing scarier than a guy bent on doing evil because it's the only way he can avoid his own self-loathing.

He's stuck in the Sith perpetual craving for more and more power, and thus wants to be the Master someday, but when Luke comes along he finds himself conflicted again. Part of him wants Luke to join, help defeat Sidious and continue the Sith line, but the little bit of good in him is faintly being rekindled. His motivations are still driven by greed, until Luke's display of compassion and selflessness fully awaken the good in him.

Sure, he's grateful to Sidious, in a manner of speaking, but they both know it's the Sith way for the Apprentice to seek to destroy the Master, fueled largely by hate. They rely on their passions for their strength.

 

VADER: "You don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master."

Vader isn't just referring to Sidious. He's referring to the dark side itself.

"You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the Dark Side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

--George Lucas, Vanity Fair, 2005.

"...if you start with Star Wars, then Vader’s just the villain, and that’s it. But you don’t realize that he’s a human being, that he’s got problems you don’t realize that he could have been saved, that he was tricked and can be resurrected."

--George Lucas, Empire Magazine 2001.

"Luke is therefore urging stoic wisdom upon Vader when he tells him to let go of his hate. Unfortunately, hatred has had such a viselike hold on Vader for so long that he tells Luke: "It is too late for me son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." For servants of the dark side, the true nature of the Force is servitude to evil, enslavement to hate. Like virtues, vices tend to control one's behavior. Vader has used fear and hatred to achieve his ends for so long that now the superior hatred and aggression of the Emperor use him. That is how Vader's mastery of the dark side is at the same time servitude to it."

--Star Wars and Philosophy, page 27.

 

I think he's trying to prove to everybody, especially himself, that he made the right choice. Yes, Palpatine didn't deliver on his promises, and he's lost much of what he cared about, but the Dark Side is still stronger, right? He's put the galaxy in order, right? He's one step away from seizing total power and really making things be OK for everyone, right? So, obviously Luke will see this as the way to go and join him and make the whole blasted thing worthwhile, right? I mean, otherwise, his last twenty+ years have been an utter waste, and that's simply not possible, right? Right?
This idea is put forward in James Kahn's ROTJ novelization: the notion that Vader needs to prove to Luke and everyone that he made the right choice, for himself and everyone else. As much as he told himself that he was doing this for everyone's benefit, it still came down to his own self-image, greed and desire for power. But, in the end, he accepts how fully he was wrong and repents his crimes.

 

It's how he rationalized his actions. He can't admit that he did wrong.

To him, the Emperor was a means to an end, just like Vader is to the Emperor. There's no gratefulness in their "relationship".

 

To me Vader had nothing left at the end of ROTS but anger and hate, and he dove right in, it gave him strength. Palpatine is a bit different, he doesn't have the passionate anger that Vader has , he wallows more in the insidious aspects of the darkside, he misjudged Anakin he didn't realise that his anger was also part of love , he didn't see Anakin's return.

 

The dark side of the force is in many ways a highly addictive drug.
Vader claims to be resigned to it in ROTJ. But the dark side is so complicated that it is perfectly believable for Vader to hate Palpatine, but still have a respect. It's also perfectly believable for Vader to hate himself, but still draw immense power from the dark side.

 

Vader is very much a split. You see this in Kenobi (Disney+) where Anakin surfaces briefly and Vader than takes hold.
Anakin is obsessed with Kenobi, Vader needs to move past him:

 

Vader is driven by a desire for revenge for what happened on Mustafar, as well the blame that he gives him for Shmi and Padme. That is why he is obsessed with finding him and getting his due.

 

Because you're trying to use motivations not introduced until the early 2000's for a movie that was already made back in 1983.

 

Uh, those motivations were there in 1978. The details were not there, but the broadstrokes was. Vader regretted his actions beginning with Luke's refusal to turn. Before that, he wanted to kill him once he learned of Luke. Padme's death and Shmi's existence didn't come until the 90’s.

 

One of the things I like about Vader's conversation with Luke on Endor in ROTJ is that you can see that Vader is conflicted but not yet ready to turn his back on the dark side. Vader feels pride in how Luke has become a powerful Jedi, but he also feels jealousy and resentment, for he knows that Luke is, essentially, what he could have been had he remained loyal to the light side of the Force. He is driven by his own ambition to supplant Sidious, but he's also afraid of him, and justifiably so. There's a lot going on in his man's head. Ahsoka Tano may be my favorite Star Wars character, though Jyn Erso, Cassian Andor, and Luke Skywalker are up there, as well, but Darth Vader is my favorite villain from this franchise. Well, Vader is, along with Darth Sidious and Darth Plagueis, that is. By the time of ROTJ, I think Vader has been feeling remorse for a long time. It had just become intermittent over the years. He had a high degree of respect and I daresay reverence for the dark side of the Force for the power it granted to him. But in the end, Vader chose to save Luke because Luke was, in a way, a part of Padme. And he didn't want to lose someone else close to him to death again. This is not to say that Vader's redemption excused all of his crimes as Darth Vader. Rather, it is a form of atonement for his past sins.





I highly recommend Darth Vader and the Lost Command. That, along with Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison, are my favorite Vader stories from the old EU.

 

A person can get pretty messed up, and have some really twisted views on things when they spend their lives accompanied by darkness and evil.

The way I see it, he's angry with himself. So in a way he is subconsciously gravitated to suffering, the need to more or less punish himself. But once his Son comes along, he's spent so much time taking advantage to the power the Darkside offered, he saw his son as an opportunity to have his cake and eat it too: Recover something he'd lost, while at the same time using Luke to help him defeat the Emperor. Afterall, all Anakin has wanted all this time is one thing: ultimate control. And he in his warped way of thinking believes that once he does away with the emperor and he's in charge, he can FINALLY make everything the way he's wanted all along, and make up for what he's lost along he way.

This concept of control has always been Anakin's main motivation, ever since childhood.

 

Vader hesitates to take revenge, he only does in ANH when Kenobi lowers his guard to let Vader slay him.

 

I always wondered what Vader thought of the fact that Kenobi literally let Vader kill him. Like, was he thinking "that wasn't satisfying" cos he let him win? Or was Vader too blinded by hate and drive for revenge that he didn't even notice?

I would think it's realistic to believe that Vader was confused by Obi-Wan letting Vader kill him. IMO the way Vader reacted afterwords kind of seems that way, like he's confused not only at the fact Obi-Wan disappeared, but wondering why Obi-Wan behaved that way in general. I could imagine Vader brooding on that for some time, after killing him-as he tried to work out why Kenobi would do that, and what happened to him.

 

Vader does seem intrigued when Kenobi disappears, he even feels his robe with his boot.

I always felt Vader might have had some melancholic feelings, at long last he gets his revenge after long, but is it empty? He cuts down an old man, not Kenobi in his prime on Mustafar, and he continues to speak well of Kenobi, “Obi-Wan has taught you well.”

Palpatine’s concern in Disney+ Kenobi series about Vader’s attachment to Kenobi is warranted. He cannot seem to forget or discard the valuable teachings of his once master, even using the memory of one lesson against Reva.

 

I'm sure he'd also be wondering what Obi-wan meant about becoming more powerful than he could imagine. That's gotta be worrisome.

 

Yes, that also definitely as part of it.

 

I have wondered if to become a Force Ghost, other than disappearing like Obi and Yoda, a Jedi has to be burned to ashes like Qui-Gon Jinn and Anakin/Vader?

 

It's not how the remains are disposed. To become a Force Ghost (as in be able to move from the afterlife into the physical realm), it's based on Force ability, as well as compassion for others. I figure everybody goes to the afterlife (either Light Side Heaven or Dark Side Hell), but only those really strong with the Light Side of the Force are able to move between both sides of existence. Or, in the case of Han in TROS, it's because he's Han and the rules of existence bend to his will.

 

Interesting. I know The Shamans taught Qui-Gon who teaches Yoda and Kenobi, but Anakin didn’t have the training, and I doubt Luke in TLJ did, unless its in those Sacred Jedi Texts.

 

I'm not up on certain elements of the EU, particularly more recent additions. At first, it was pretty much assumed that powerful Jedi just become Force Ghosts naturally. Later, pretty much around the PT, it was said that you needed special training to gain the ability. Ani was let in thanks to his own natural ability, plus the grace of the Force. Maybe Luke picked up the training in the period between the OT and ST. Or maybe I missed something else they've come up with.
I stand by my opinion regarding Han, though. He's just that cool.

 

I don’t think Han was actually a ghost there — he didn’t have the blue aura or anything. He may have just been a vision Kylo was having, perhaps a deep seated wish to apologize to his dad and get the forgiveness he wanted.

 

It’s implied Leia helps summon Han, to help bring her son back to The Light.

 

Did she actually summon Han, though? Or did she just influence Ben to open himself up to the love he'd been repressing for his own father?