Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

Erm... you really are not "totally for diversity in all it's (sic) forms" if you think entertainment needs to be really sensitive to the delicate temperaments of the poor suffeering racist sexist homophobic folks out there who just can't deal with the terrifying reality that non-straight-white males might show up in their fantasy films. It's up to them to get with it, not for the films to coddle their vile hateful prejudices until they "get over" them.

 

But that's the whole point in pushing for diversity, to make people feel represented, isn't it? To try and educate the people who may be stubborn and ignorant in there world view. What better platform is there than the entertainment industry to reach people, isn't that the point in casting more woman, ethnic, gay actors etc. in roles to reflect how the majority feel, hoping at the same time to reach the uninformed minority?

There aren't just good people and bad in the world, there is a huge grey area and they are the most important people to reach out to. People who aren't simply full of hatred, just uneducated, or whatever adjective you want to use for them. You don't just throw Shakespeare at an illiterate person and tell them to start reading, do you?

My personal view is that Disney's approach to their whole diversity push comes across as insincere and heavy handed. Instead of slowly building this new Star Wars galaxy and filling it with all different shapes and sizes, their simply cramming it as full as it can be all in one push, overwhelming some fans and inevitably turning some away. This is no more evident than in the community of fanboy trolls that is rapidly growing with each new film.

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you have to please some of them for at least some of it...

 

You’ve left out Rogue One, which had a Latino as a main lead, and a diverse ensemble including a Pakistani Brit and two Chinese actors (not to mention Forest in a substantial cameo). And they were all great actors. Also, saying Thandie Newton was cast because of her skin color is pretty offensive. She’s a phenomenal actress with a lot of great roles under her belt, including but not limited to Westworld.

And I hardly think that “political correctness gone wrong” is the worst thing about today’s world. How about the rise in xenophobic nationalism and the complete lack of humanity those political forces regularly display? Yeah, that’s a lot worse.

 

I never intended to list every film and character played by actors other than white, I used them as examples. For instance someone earlier commented on Thandie Newton's character in Solo. Anyway, how is saying Thandie Newton got the role because of her skin offensive? In their casting calls 90% of the time they specify exactly what they're after... young/old black/white male/female etc. In this climate they obviously wanted a women of colour, and saying she's hot right now they decided to waste her talents by quickly rushing her in to a bit-part throwaway character. Yet again, shoving a non-white actor in to a worthless role just to tick a box instead of picking the right person for the job.

RO is a perfect example that highlights exactly what I'm trying to say... cram every minority in to one film so that Disney can stand back and say hey, everyone, look at how diverse we are... now please come and spend your money!
There's nothing wrong with multiplicity, but it takes time and the more it's forced the more it's rejected. You don't think Disney's agenda is for the betterment of mankind do you? There's only one colour they're interested in and by pushing it too far, too soon it's clearly starting to push back, hence the backlash since TLJ.

TFA, first female lead. First black lead. RO, second female lead. First Spanish lead. TLJ, see TFA. Solo, first black woman. Female droid... do you see a pattern here?It's so contrived it's laughable, because most of these characters are terrible. First black male, relegated to a crappy side-story interracial romance, all for the purpose of selling more tickets in Asia. First black female, dies half way through and is so pointless that by the end you forget she was even in it to begin with.
By all means make movies full of characters played by every kind of actor imaginable, but at least do it with some sincerity. Build it over time, film by film and let it evolve naturally, putting some NOPE effort in to it, so when future announcements are made of the first gay characters to appear, they make the wait worthwhile and genuinely speak to their fanbase. Make it mean something!

As far as Xenomorphic nationalism goes, yes I agree that's bad and in another league compared to political correctness, but I never stated otherwise.

 

Right. The only way his points are not contradictory is if they are, well, racist...

 

Interesting point of view. I disagree completely. The films of the Disney era represent the same diversity of people who you'd meet walking down the street. Why should the GFFA be any different to real life? No way are they cramming in minorities. I can't see why people have a problem with this and are overly sensitive to seeing non-white actors on the screen, unless they live in some backwater that looks at someone suspiciously if they have a suntan.

 

You want daring in terms of all things diverse, look no further than Star Trek: Discovery- that show didn't mess around. Really good show by the way if you haven't seen it. I hear Trekkies didn't like it, but who cares, they are even weirder than SW fans.

 

Look, people who live in a real world that has people of those ethnicities in it didn't go to see R1 because of that, we went to see some stuff about the Death Star plans. But when we sat down in the theatre, it felt pretty normal to the point where we (well, I at least) didn't really think about it. Whereas if any if the new SW films had an exclusively anglo cast and only male leads, I woulda been, wait, that's a little weird.

You're essentially asking progressive people to just hang in there while SW stays nearly all-white, so as not to scare away racists, who will catch up with us eventually... but how will that happen if Disney just serves them up more all-white, male-centric Star Wars films?

Your point of view is getting increasingly hard to defend as anything other than an attempt to rationalize the fact that you personally have an issue with diversity in Star Wars films.

 

Racism and sexism are alive and well, including in Star Wars fandom. But it feels like a last gasp to me. The next generation won’t tolerate this **** anymore.

 

Yes, I do have a problem with diversity in this new Star Wars era, currently. A problem that stems from watching films that are blatantly filled to the brim with diversity in a hollow attempt at pandering to the current climate. Characters that are rushed and written so poorly that they're just as hollow as Disney's disingenuous push for equality. Roles that could be played by any bit-part nobodies, bigged up to feel more important, and inevitably come across as meaningless and forgettable.

Take Marvel Studios for example, it took almost ten years for them to finally release Black Panther. A film that was successful on it's own merit, because time, effort and care was taken when developing it. Time in finding the right talent for the right part, not just throwing a group of actors on screen because they happened to be black.
Now, Marvel can go forward and adapt any kind of multi-cultural comic book stories they want. Simply by dropping seeds of diversity throughout their films they've been incredibly smart in how many audience members, who may not have been all that receptive to a non-white cast, may now start to question exactly why they've just enjoyed a film starring a predominantly black cast... and why exactly, are they looking forward to the next one? Because they've been invested in those characters and that world, they've begun to care regardless of sex and colour, over time, without realising, without being pushed.

Disney has taken what it's achieved with Marvel Studios for over a decade and forced Lucasfilm to replicate it, but in one tenth of the time. To me that gives the impression that they only care about making money, forcing something that would begin to fit on it's own terms over time.

It's not really about asking people to hang in there, while others catch up. Not if change happens slow, it's about progress being a marathon not a sprint, the faster you go the more people you will leave behind, then the world would be even more divided.
This conversation wouldn't be happening if Lucasfilm were continuing off the back of the MCU's ten year plan, instead of getting greedy. Evidently, a lot of Star Wars fans are beginning to see through it, and just because they share a different opinion on how and why diversity should be used and integrated in to the saga they're branded racist, or sexist etc.

I do live in the real world, unfortunately, and at times it can be full of hatred and unacceptance, much of which I've witnessed first hand. So, if there's a chance it can be made a little brighter by making one person question their morality through the art of entertainment, I'm all for it. Surely, it takes strong writing and strong characters to make that happen, something I'm afraid is non-existent so far.
Star Wars is one of the most perfect platforms to promote change, but Disney's Lucasfilm-diversity-crusade won't change anything, because it feels soulless... it's just a money-making scheme wrapped in a pretty transparent-multi-coloured-force for change bow.

 

@darksideDINO Anyone who wants to diversify the cast of their movie series must do so gradually until some far-flung point in the future, as to not shock audiences?

That is so unfair to a lot of actors. It's also kinda cowardly.

Why don't you criticize sloppy writing and either praise or ignore diversity? Those are after all two different topics in this case, regardless how many connections you'd like to pretend there are.

 

This idea just fails from top to bottom. Since when does it take ages to "correctly" write characters? Either they are written well or they aren't. That's not something that has to do with any other movie. Black Panther didn't succeed because completely different writers wrote movies setting this up for years. They didn't move through a different casting process than all other Marvel or non-Marvel Disney-movies, nor did they take ages to prepare for that specific movie either. The idea that you need to spend a decade to set up something like this is completely absurd. Marvel didn't set up anything like that at all, Black Panther was just another "b-level" Marvel movie that somehow fit the zeitgeist and absolutely exploded. This wasn't something that Disney had planned or expected in any way. They didn't wait ten years until the time for this was ready either. Black Panthere merely happened to be not among the top Marvel super-heroes, which is why it wasn't part of the first wave, like the bigger names were. It came out now, because it was time for another wave of heroes, as the first wave already had up to three movies each, with the actors showing signs of not wanting to do a whole lot more of those. Hence there is now Ant-Man, and Doctor Strange, and Black Panther, and soon Captain Marvel.

"Diversity-crusade", ha, ridiculous. None of the Disney SW-movies went out of their way to be especially diverse. Yes, those complaints most definately are sexist and racist, because they take movies that have no particular amount of diversity (in either direction) and pretend that they are overflowing with forced attempts of it. That simply has nothing to do with reality.

Star Wars had a kickass female co-lead right from the get go, it also had a black actor in an important support role both in the OT (Billy Dee Williams) and the PT (Samuel L. Jackson), so how exactly is having a female lead, or a black co-star, now oh so "over the top diverse"?

Was Ocean's 11 over the top diverse back in 2001 when it had a cast that starred a famous actress (Julia Roberts), a Latino (Andy Garcia), two black guys (Don Cheadle and Bernie Mac) and a chinese?
Were Kill Bill 1 and 2 over the top diverse when it had tons of asian actors and some black characters as well?

The new Star Wars movies most definately aren't trying to force diversity down anyone's throat. They have a completely normal mix, that is neither particularly diverse nor lacking in diversity. The idea that Star Wars of all franchises - the one that created one of the most iconic female characters of all time in Princess Leia, and which took it up to point out ridiculous politics or bad treatment of people right from the get go - should take a much slower approach to diversity than it is currently having (which, again, isn't anything out of the ordinary) goes against anything the franchise has been about.

 

The whole idea of "forced diversity" and "moving too fast with minority characters" is an interesting one. This idea sets the norm into a situation of forcing straight white guys into everything, which had been the norm before; and in fact was a much more "forced" and deliberate process than giving everyone involved a reasonable opportunity. Under this thinking, it would be problematic not to continue to force white characters into everything, and hold off on being fair to others who wanted an opportunity, lest we upset the sensibilities of those who don't want to see anything but white people in their entertainment.

I think with their recent success, we are going to have to concede that diverse movies are NOT problematic overall in their reception, and that those screaming about it on the internet don't represent what works in the industry- and I am talking from a business perspective, not just in terms of being fair.

 

The blatantly obvious difference between Black Panther and the recent Star Wars films under K. Kennedy (or at least the new trilogy) is the spreading/sharing of wealth. Arguably one of the most celebrated aspects of BP is how well-handled nearly all of the main characters are. Other people outside of T'Challa are allowed to shine, given the opportunity to determine important outcomes, provided moments in which they can be bad-ass and written in a manner in which their bravery and competence are never in doubt. Nakia, Okoye, M'Baku, etc, did not have to be as well fleshed out and fierce as they wound up being portrayed. Shuri didn't have to be as endearing. In fact if you know anything about the comic books you would know that Shuri wasn't the resident genius in Wakanda, T'Challa was/is. But in the film they gave her those attributes to further boost her character even if it meant taking away one of the defining strengths of the comic book T'Challa. The BP movie was the first of its kind for a black male superhero and despite that the writers, director and studio agreed to go down a path in which the lead character didn't overshadow all of the other characters in terms of strength, honor, intelligence, decision-making, fighting skills and so on.

This is in sharp contrast to this current Star Wars trilogy. We are two movies into a three film storyline and I'm still waiting for a single defining bad-ass moment for Finn. Shuri in one less film and far shorter screen time has surpassed Finn as a beloved audience favorite and it has nothing to do with the acting of the particular performers, it has everything to do with how each is written and what each is allowed to do. And this is not just a criticism of Rian Johnson and TLJ. I recall writing numerous posts about Finn's portrayal in TFA. These posts pointed out how Rey was portrayed as being far superior to Finn than any other SW lead has ever been compared to her co-star. She knocked Finn off his feet when they first met proving she was a better fighter, she could understand droid and Wookie languages, she was a great pilot, she could understand and fix machinery, she immediately earned the trust of Han Solo and oh, yeah, she was gifted with incredible Force abilities. Finn didn't have a thing on her. In fact the argument made by countless SW fans all over the internet was that you couldn't have Finn overshadow Rey, the first female SW lead, by making him force sensitive or even halfway competent. After all Rey was THE LEAD so making Finn a Master of Nothing was perfectly acceptable even despite the fact that no previous SW leading character had ever been treated like that. Well the Black Panther movie was literally called "Black Panther" and despite that the filmmakers didn't feel the need to weaken the other key players in order to ensure Black Panther himself wasn't overshadowed. T'Challa had the most screen time, the far greater character arc and key decisive moments to determine the final outcome, but the supporting characters were just as strong. Amazing how such a thing can be done if TPTB care about ALL the characters. Interesting enough one could argue that in TLJ Kylo ended up being a realization of the fear of Rey being overshadowed. He had by far the most dynamic arc and storyline of TLJ. And yet the actuality of him overshadowing Rey in TLJ didn't lead to as much consternation and opposition among fans as the fear that Finn would possibly overshadow Rey in TFA. I guess that's part of the perks of being a white male character in a SW film...people are more willing to accept being elevated to the same status as the female lead.

I discovered today that TLJ is on Netflix. I don't know how long that has been the case. Could have been weeks, months. What I do know is that I had no desire to watch it. A movie I was expecting to see multiple times in the theaters I ended up seeing only once (opening day) and have no desire to check out again. And for the first time in my almost 45 years on this planet I did not go to see the new SW film that hit the theaters (Solo). That would have been unthinkable for me just six months ago. The almost tragic handling of POC characters in these new movies (don't get me started on Rose) has helped in killing my enthusiasm for a franchise that has meant more to me than any other. The pedestrian writing of the scripts in general hasn't helped either.

 

Discovery isn't even all that good IMO. Deep Space Nine was more diverse, more daring (it went forward instead of going back like the last two ST series and JJ movies) and made its debut over 25 years ago. That was a show that was well-ahead of its time.

 

This is utterly disingenuous because you're literally asking Disney to reset the clock to the casting conventions of 40 years ago.

Let's compare the "forced diversity" that upsets you so much to your racist-coddling ideals. You imagine a world where Disney should be thinking:

"Let's not upset the rednecks out there and tread VERY CAREFULLY so we don't upset the fragile white males out there (who aren't even the majority of the GA, but whatever)."

"So for TFA let's make sure we don't jar their sensibilities and set it to the 1977 OT standard of an all anglo lead trio with one female, and maybe have a black guy in the secondary cast, since a scant 30-some years ago they managed to make peace with Lando. That seems safe! And we can enlighten people! Almost to the levels of tolerance we saw in the '80s!"

"Now, with R1, we might consider moving a female to the lead, or... well, let's not get crazy, co-lead. With a white guy, of course! But uh oh, that might be upsetting so better make sure there are no other POC's in the whole cast! Phew, sensibilities unrattled, we can continue to "enlighten" them if we tread very very gently!"

"Okay, TLJ... well, we can maybe actually make the female the lead this time. And move the black guy up into the main cast. He can maybe have a romantic interest... a black woman of course, oh my, let's not get crazy here and suggest interracial romance! But we can have some Chinese dudes in the background maybe."

THAT is what pandering quotas look like, and it is ugly. Mercifully nobody who's in charge of an entertainment franchise and *wants to actually make money* is going to go that route. Because it's 2018.

The only people you're "leaving behind" by having more normal representation are white racists. They can let the blast doors hit them on the way out. And that would be the corporate viewpoint, too, or else Roseanne would still be on TV.

 

Have you heard yourself? Just in case you didn't know... All racists are not extreme, all racists are not white, and all racists are not male!

You talk as though we haven't made progress since the OT...in which, I believe Billy Dee Williams was cast as a knee-jerk reaction to adding more diversity. We had strong white male/female characters, so it made sense. The difference being, his character was actually 3-Dimensional, interesting, charismatic, and most importantly memorable.

The PT gave us more strong females and black actors such as Ahmed Best and Samuel L Jackson. There's also Temuera Morrison who's Moari and Jimmy Smits...dunno what Jimmy Smits is, but I like him. Puerto Rican, just looked him up. Whether you like Jar-Jar Binks or not, you can't deny the one thing he's not is forgettable... plus a little racist.

Now the ST... why isn't a white female lead and black male lead good enough to represent change? I don't mean that's it, no more diversity. I mean, it's never happened before so focus on those two characters and invest some time and effort in their arcs and flesh them out. Right at this moment, these characters, after a promising start, have become 2-D at best.
R1, a female lead. Why isn't that good enough, It is progression is it not? A full cast of diverse actors, wasted on poor, forgettable characters. All in the name of diversity. These actors could have been cast in much greater and meaningful roles, if Disney wasn't grinding it's diversity push in to the ground without pausing for at least a second. It doesn't mean anything without time to sit and reflect when progress is being made, otherwise it becomes forgettable, just like these characters.

There's plenty time to branch out with the Star Wars stories and use them to start populating the galaxy with diverse characters and story lines that reflect society, giving them a voice, in terms of social commentary. Eventually, the whole saga will reflect that change, with character's that represent something, instead of being churned out... the product of Disney over compensating to look cosmopolitan.

You may not like it, but people aren't responding to it very well. One side comes from this belief of feminism taking over, castrating the male characters, alienating a bunch of the fandom. It doesn't help when KK's pictured in a group photo claiming the force is female, does it?
Personally, I don't believe the backlash since the TLJ is all about angry 'racist white men' who can't accept change, it's about anger over a certain demographic being ignored. That doesn't make them racist or misogynistic, it's just frustration over double standards, which leads to anger when there passion is then passed off as prejudice.

The world is full of racist, sexist, homophobic and ignorant people, there is know getting around that. But when people can't, or are afraid to speak there mind for fear of upsetting someone because there opinion is not PC, then there is always going to be a divide. Especially, when said people are automatically branded and categorised as one of the above.
I feel sorry for a society that, for the best part, history has proven to be progressive still produces xenophobia. But what I can't fathom is how it can also create people who claim to be all inclusive, but turn their back on the fearful and uneducated, without a second thought?

Understanding is the key, and entertainment is a big part of modern culture. I think that more effort should go in to tackling these issues, instead of simply full-steam ahead and forget the rest, which seems to be your mindset, too.
Just to please the enlightened few who deem themselves worthy, let's forget the little people, regardless of their views and leave them all behind... sounds like capitalism, doesn't it?

I guess if you don't jump on the Disney bandwagon, you must automatically be a 'Neo Nazi', eh?

 

I’m a white guy and I don’t feel like I’m being ignored.

And I don’t think including women and poc in main roles is ‘pandering’ or ‘forced’. It’s just simply including women and poc because they exist in the real world. Like was said above, the world is populated by more than just white guys. So this ‘current climate’ claim is just ignorance.

And plenty of folks here have expressed praise for Disney for its diverse representation, like in RO. That doesn’t mean people can’t also point out that woc are still vastly under represented or that all the directors are still white guys.

 

Okay, I get where almost everyone is coming from as far as this topic, but there are some key concerns that I have as an African-American male.

Firstly, forced diversity is a weird topic to discuss. When I think of "forced diversity I think of a show like Riverdale, where all of non-white and queer characters are just used as brownie points to say that the show is diverse, while giving the main straight white characters all of the development. Now, before we all scream about The Last Jedi, believe me when I say, I get it...even though I don't totally agree. Personally, I think "forced diversity", in and of itself, is an overused term. All representation is not good, but I feel that shutting down the diversity of this magnitude (i.e where the majority of the cast are people of color and women) would be a little unfortunate. This was completely unheard of before 2015. When has one of the best selling movies of all time ever had an African-American male as the main character before Star Wars: The Force Awakens? It is sad that some people feel that Rey still overshadowed Finn in TFA. I personally felt that he was the best character in the movie, but I was also happy for Rey's arc too. I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask for better representation. Quite the contrary, I'm also waiting for that truly badass moment for Finn. Although, he has plenty of other moments too.

However, I don't that we should pretend that these making over a billion dollars is not significant:


Secondly, using Black Panther as a point of comparison is rather interesting. Rogue One and the Sequel Trilogy are filled with diverse actors from various races, while BP pretty much casts people of the African descent. Oddly enough, the Alt-Right tried to cite BP as a great movie because it's a black movie that has a group of black people wanting to separate from other races (particularly white). Now BP is one of my favorite movies and I'm extremely protective of it, so let's be clear: it's a pro-black movie that relates to social issues and commentary regarding topics that actually relate to people of the African diaspora. In contrast, most of the Disney era films are metaphorical in nature, having people of color fighting back against the villains resembling the white lead Nazis and fascists. In short, Black Panther is just more real and down-to-earth than the "Galaxy, Far, Far Away". It's also a black story with a predominantly black cast told by a black director...which is obviously has a better chance of representing black people well. Still, there are plenty of black people that hate BP and cite it as racist.

However, the fact that people are using BP as a better example of groundbreaking casting to other films that also have groundbreaking casting (and ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN RELEASED IN THE SAME DECADE) is pretty awesome.

 

Maybe not, but the only ones you're being protective of... are. By your own definitions.

You're not looking out for the minorities, and you're not looking out for the future of STAR WARS because your prescription for its future is "make it as white as it can be until somehow people evolve (whilst giving them no reason to since things will stay safely white)". Especially when the brand is in trouble overseas... you're asking for LFL to commit commercial suicide.

So you don't care about minorities, or Star Wars. The only thing you're concerned about is, quite explicitly, the sensibilities of unevolved white racists.

Here at least you're being honest. It was too much to have casting that reflects the real world in the '80's, and it's too much now. It seems the '50s are as modern as the audience you're concerned about (and are pretty clearly a part of) can take.

Does it not occur to you that the concern is not about "progress", but just about casting that represents humanity as it is? Why this obsession with "moving forward slowly and carefully", with the ONLY group whose concerns need to be considered being white males? Scratch that... I'm one of those, and you don't need to worry about shocking me with casting that looks like what I see when I walk down the street. White racists are the only group whose sensibilities concern you.

By the way, does this concern ONLY apply to franchises started in the '70's? Or would ANY storyline starting up in the modern day have to carefully, bizarrely, cast as if it were 1950 and slowly introduce characters of other ethnicities?

It's been pointed out to you several times, fruitlessly, that your storytelling and writing concerns are entirely separate from casting and representation. And it's arguable that that's even more true in SW than most stories, since the human as shown in the saga do not even appear to be differentiated by "race". Finn isn't "African American" because, like, no Africa, no America. Baize and Chirrut aren't Asian... there's no Asia on the GFFA any more than there is in Middle Earth. But the primary point is, if you think the characters are poorly written, that is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to what you're banging on about.

"Progress" happens in the real world, and there is no reason why a fantasy universes has to be backdated to "catch up" because people live in the real world. Or that the first group to be represented before you commence with the "progress" needs to be (visually, as it means nothing IU) of Northern European descent.

See, your definition of "people" is telling. You mean... white people, and again, not even MOST white people. Are there women or POC who are expressing any negative response?

Yeah, it all comes out now. If you're for diversity you're an "SJW" or "the thought police"... that's always where this was headed. See below.

Nope, I don't believe anyone here made any such ridiculous statement, and if you were able to separate your story and writing complaints from your myopia about catering exclusively to the poor, fragile undereducated racist minority, you'd find your opinions fairly well understood, even by those who disagree.

There is one thing you don't seem to understand: These movies are for everyone. And "everyone" is more than undereducated white people.

 

Black Panther makes sense to have a mostly Black cast because of the setting/context. And you almost never see a big Hollywood blockbuster with a 95+% Black cast, so that in an of itself is significant. And they still had a couple of White males in significant roles (Ulysses Klaue and Everett K. Ross).

Other frachises, like SW, don't have that same context.