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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by Pro Scoundrel , Nov 20, 2016.

  1. The Deuteragonist

    The Deuteragonist Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    So here is an interesting pair of articles from IndieWire and The Mary Sue discussing how two certain Disney-era Star Wars movies define the current political climate:

    The 7 Movies That Define The Trump Era (hint: one of them is Star Wars: The Last Jedi)- https://www.indiewire.com/2018/06/movies-define-trump-era-1201977873/

    "The Last Jedi didn’t just piss off the right people, it also tapped into the desperation of being wronged, and the sacrifices required to restore the balance between them. No other Trump-era blockbuster has so viscerally conveyed the feeling of being eclipsed by an immense darkness, or so convincingly illustrated the possibility of finding a new hope."

    Why Rogue One is the Movie We Needed In The Era of Trump- https://www.themarysue.com/rogue-one-star-wars-we-need/
    "If you want a space opera about the creeping horror of facing an immense, seemingly unstoppable evil and finding the hope to fight back, that would be Rogue One, Lucasfilm’s first standalone story."
    "It is a film that magnifies the need for action, for finding your voice, for taking a stand even if it’s personally inconvenient. If your act of resistance inspires another, soon there will be a ripple effect of change. So while The Last Jedi is certainly a political film, it is not the Trump era Star Wars film. That title belongs to Rogue One, without a shadow of a doubt."

    I can definitely see this perspective of Rogue One. The film itself is very inclusive and is a tale of the relatively unknown doing great things. It's one of the bolder Star Wars movies and for that, I can definitely appreciate it. It's a good film and definitely one of the best war movies I've ever seen. The characters are likable enough to leave an impression, but they're not exactly deep or complex. If they were stronger, I would probably agree but...I don't know. Maybe I need to watch it again.
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    When Rogue One was released, there was outcry among some Trump supporters that it was a direct swipe at Trump.

    To which my response was, if you think a movie about fighting an evil Empire is a fight against your guy, the movie isn’t the problem.
     
  3. The Deuteragonist

    The Deuteragonist Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018

    UM, ONE MORE TIME FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!

    But no, I honestly never really saw any Anti-Trump or Anti-Right undertones. I heard that there were even boycotts during the release of the film. Was it because the main characters were played by a woman and a Mexican actor? I'm sure I'm missing something.

    It's not hard to believe, though, as contrary to somewhat popular belief (and Jeremy Jahns), Star Wars has always been pretty political.
     
  4. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    While I'm sure it had nothing to do with Trump in terms of the production of the movie, I must say Krennic's disposition and outlook does remind me a lot of Trump...
     
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  5. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    I'm probably the only guy in the Star Wars fanbase (or at least, it feels that way) that wants my Native friends to be represented more in Star Wars TBH.

    Wes Studi could definitely fit a role in Star Wars, for example.
     
  6. Aximili86

    Aximili86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Studi's the man, he'd be cool to see show up somewhere.
     
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  7. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    I think that he's a really underrated actor when it comes down to it.
     
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  8. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I definitely want to see the emphasis diversity in front of the camera that we've had so far in the new films continued, and also built upon, but I want to see some diversity behind the camera, too.
     
  9. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Psst. You won't see them if they're behind the camera. Duh.
     
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  10. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I hate you.
     
  11. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    We need a break from white male directors. A long break. Sorry Rian Johnson fans (I still find it outrageous how he represented female breasts as "alien" and grotesque, and people say this was quirky--it's sexist), but he actually directed one of the least progressive SW films we've had. What matters is how characters are represented.

    Diversity in new films: A Finn trilogy would be a good step. Directed and written by a person of color.

    Representations of people of color in new SW films must move away from stereotypical comedic, ineffective performances. We need serious, wise, intelligent, compassionate, effective, brave characters who rise up against various forms of evil.

    It's not enough to simply have a diverse cast; the characters themselves need to be worthwhile representations of diversity.

    We can't ever forget that Hollywood history is full of negative representations of women and people of color. Some of the worst stereotypes are that woman are irrational and selfish (Holdo) and that people of color are buffoons (TLJ Finn and TLJ Rose).

    It's not an excuse to say the director is trying to be funny: leave the silly behavior to the white male fascists, not the diverse heroes and heroines.

    So once again, I think the negative representation of TLJ demands the need for a Finn trilogy. It's a reparation that LFL owes its audience.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree with the majority of what you said, although I would be fine with another white male director if he is sensitive to negative stereotypes, actively wants to avoid them, and listens to women and POC when they tell him that he may have come across as unintentionally racist or sexist.

    And I’d add “women are emotional” and “women are unconditionally nurturing” and “women are moral compasses for men” to the negative stereotypes you mentioned.
     
  13. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    so...women are not emotional? [face_tee_hee] I kid.
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Only when our favorite sports teams lose.
     
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  15. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    https://deadline.com/2020/02/baftas-2020-joaquin-phoenix-diversity-awards-season-1202849378/
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  16. Aximili86

    Aximili86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2018

    What in the hell? [face_laugh] It was a seal-alien. So, alien. In a brief montage showing how Luke's been surviving.

    Zero message attempting to be conveyed there, that's looking way way way too hard into it.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If the intent was just to show how Luke had been surviving, they could have shown him catching fish or the GFFA equivalent of fish. The alien’s breasts resembled human ones far more than a cow’s udders do, and I think that was intentional, along with Luke’s gratuitous lip smacking. Johnson even said in a tweet response to someone that it was intended to make people uncomfortable.
     
  18. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    The problem with Rian is that he's not a good writer or even director. Even his recent film was simply put based off of great source material. If he had guidance or worked with others instead of making his films "auteur?" Sure, I could see him being a good director but he doesn't seem to know his own strengths TBH.

    Anyway, back to the discussion: I find that the problem with trying to include indigenous actors is that people don't know enough about them or their own indie films. We've had a Maori actor that played Jango Fett and the Clone Army but I could see the execs up top thinking that it would be too much of a hassle to introduce another indigenous actor and go through all the drama that will ensue when people claim that an indigenous actor playing a prominent character is "totally some SJW tactic to get more people to watch the film" or something. Yes, there have been other non-white actors in Star Wars, especially now, but the racism against indigenous people, especially now, seems to (and I say this with all due respect to everyone that's also non-white) extend far beyond then what we're used to.

    It's not just that they're frequent targets of neo-Nazi attacks and kidnappings in real life, it's also that people now scrutinize the "reason" behind a non-white actor getting a role far more now, I believe.

    Don't get me wrong: I believe that there should be roles for indigenous actors in Star Wars no matter what and that it will happen and that it should happen, but when that day actually comes? I can't get the feeling that it'll be nasty. I can already see the "off the reservation" jokes right now...

    :(
     
  19. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    You might try doing some research into the history of the grotesque representation of the female body in literature, art, and entertainment. Historically, masculine ideology creates a subtext for its positive values with imagery of voluptuous, idealized female bodies, and it contrasts this with its negative opposite, the grotesque feminine. It wasn't just a seal-alien (those don't exist, you know), but primarily a bizarre distortion of the feminine ideal, and this was meant to suggest Luke's spiritual fallenness.

    The alienation was an intentional distortion of the ideal; in art, alien representations of human ideals is called estrangement, and often an alienation effect (Brecht).

    The idea of estrangement is to look at something from a strange perspective in order to perceive it differently. The difference here was that milk, which is usually a symbol of health and nurturing for children, has been inverted to become gross, suggesting that Luke has fallen into a kind of unhealthy state of adult infanthood, neglecting his adult responsibilities.

    It doesn't matter how quick an image is; what matters is the subtext behind it. Rian Johnson, and whoever helped him create the image, consciously or unconsciously engaged in stereotypical male misogyny: the hatred of a female body that isn't ideal.

    And yet people continue to misread Rian Johnson's movie as progressive merely because it has an overt anti-capitalist message. If you pay attention to its representations of women and minorities, it's regularly reactionary conservative.

    This is why it's important to find people of color and diverse genders to direct and write future Star Wars films. Even white liberals like Rian Johnson are still unconsciously sexist.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  20. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    He may not even be just unconsciously sexist. He's said some things on Twitter that I've heard were pretty... rough around the edges. But I can't verify whether what he said was true or not, so I won't repeat them here. But I find some of what he has said in the past to be... bizarre. And as for its "anti-capitalist" message, it seemed more nihilistic than anything else...
     
  21. Aximili86

    Aximili86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2018
    This is basically "Butters writes a crude book full of fart jokes on South Park and everyone looks way too hard into it seeing Republican or Democrat talking points in subtext that wasn't there" territory.

    He's a hermit. Hunting fish, probably not much in the way of fresh water around so supplementing it with drinking milk from the weird alien sea creature. It's a weird/odd scene for a Star Wars movie, no doubt, but gleaning anything sexist from that's a huge huge stretch. It's "gross" because it's a weird GFFA alien thing, not because Rian's subconsciously drawing some analogue to the human body or whatever. That's what's called seeing-what-you-want-to-see.

    Might as well be drawing Freudian penis conclusions from a lightsaber.
     
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  22. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    I hope you see that your analogy is fatally flawed. The character character Butters is not a logical comparison a fancy pants artist like Rian Johnson.

    I recommend you look in to understanding the distinction between connotation and denotation. You seem to want to restrict things to denotation -- that's called "seeing what you want to see."

    In fact, we live in a culture where certain images -- like breasts and milk -- have clear connotations that create a cultural consciousness, or unconsciousness (however you like to think of it).

    To deny such obvious cultural meaning in favor of literal denotative meaning is the essence of repression. Quite often the Freudian reading is correct, and people dislike this not because it's not true -- cognitive science has proven Freud correct -- but simply because it doesn't fit with their "seeing what they want to see."
     
  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Please, no more hopes and recommendations.
     
  24. Aximili86

    Aximili86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Heh. ^

    Alrighty then, yeah, guess it's settled. Johnson's just got some emotional issues and really hates boobies. The simplest explanation!
     
  25. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    My problem with Rian Johnson:

    [​IMG]

    My problem with Johnson is that he's not what Hollywood needs right now in terms of making films with a diverse cast. In the end, he's still a symptom of Hollywood in many senses. And I would argue that he can't really write. He only did well with his recent film because of that film's source material and he obviously respected Agatha Christie. I think that we need not just directors, but writers of various backgrounds that could make the film more relatable and diverse.