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Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by Pro Scoundrel , Nov 20, 2016.

  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Aren't you from Brisbane?
     
  2. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Apparently following simple directions is unreasonable, whatever. And seeing how baiting in response to simple directions is something you’ve been warned about recently, I guess you can practice your reading and writing skills while in the Unban Request forms.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  3. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Call me conspiracy theorist (as I've been called many times before) but honestly? I've seen quite a lot of it. Government, media, education system, you name it. Don't deny that it's there, man. I know it's popular to act like it's just a bunch of SJWs or what not, but I've seen it with my own eyes and heard and read from other people on the topic. It's there. Hell, look at the Native Americans. My indigenous friends talk about neo-Nazis harassing and attacking them on their reservations and most of the police departments do nothing. One friend all the way up in Canada was talking about how nobody gives a damn about Natives in Canada either. It's wack, y'all, no question, but the objective truth is that class and race pretty much determines how hard it is for you.

    Just thought I had to get that out there. Now let's try to get this back on track, eh?

    What do people think of the guy that played Hanzee Dent in Fargo? He's got a great pedigree when it comes to acting, yeah? He could easily do the work for a Star Wars film or TV show, no problem. I hope that the High Republic comment at least has characters that are racially indigenous or what have you.
     
  4. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    I'm worried about the High Republic because of the focus on diversity and inclusion. Here's why: the problem we have now days is with "virtue signaling". It doesn't matter one iota what the physical traits are for a character. At all. What bothers me though is when the author/film maker/artist makes a point to focus on diversity before even thinking about story and then they virtue signal it. More often than not, the virtue signaling makes the diversity the topic of discussion rather than the character themselves. Without the virtue signaling, I honestly think the vast majority of fans wouldn't even give the physical traits of the character a second thought.

    For example, Leia was absolutely loved by the fandom as a feminine/strong female protagonist. I don't recall GL screaming it from the heavens about how diverse the movies were going to be because Leia was going to be a "strong woman". He simply wrote her that way and the fans loved it. The same can be said of Lando, Ashoka, Mara Jade, Mace Windu, Jaina Solo, or any other number of characters that don't fit the "white male" category. They were all simply well written, awesome characters and the fans loved them because of how they were written, not because of any physical characteristic they may have.

    It became different with Disney Star Wars because the virtue signaling started appearing even before the movie would come out and it seemed like diversity was taking a front seat to good story telling. IMO, story should never take a back seat to anything else. Let the story be the focus point of discussion and promotion and let the diversity speak for itself through the characters and their portrayal. If the characters are written well, then people won't even give the physical traits a second thought.

    I still love MLK's dream, where people are judged by the content of their character and not by physical characteristics. I'm afraid we're losing that vision by not focusing on character enough these days. :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  5. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Not to continue a tangent, but I can't get over how people act like institutional racism is some abstract idea- it really isn't. There are endless examples that can be demonstrated with hard numbers- for example, the criminal justice system, and disproportionate sentencing and convictions. The problem is, in a time of culture war, people want to stick to their own tribe no matter how overwhelming the evidence against them; actual logic and numbers don't figure into their conclusions in any meaningful way.
     
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  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    @Vezner : I agree to a point about Disney promoting the so-called new diversity in Star Wars, “the Force is female” and “the first female Jedi protagonist”...but less because they promoted that than the fact that it ended up being a load of garbage. The ST may have been diverse in a token way but it was far less diverse and progressive in the way the characters were portrayed than the Lucas era movies were, with ROTS being the exception to that. And even that movie did a pretty good job with Mace Windu.

    I don’t like brainless, overly emotional characters regardless of gender but I find it particularly appalling when a woman is written that way, because the reason is usually “that’s how women are/tend to be.” Just one example of why characters should not be written without any regard to the gender of the character or ethnicity of the actor. Avoiding bad stereotypes IS important.
     
  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Or you could judge the content for what's actually in the content, rather than what people say while promoting it, which is going to be filtered and exaggerated.

    MLKs vision is about diversity and not sitting on our hands lest including diversity may set off people that it's trying to 'send a message'.
     
  8. CrazyOldJedi

    CrazyOldJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2000
    And do you know why the European right of centre political parties are gaining ground? I'm guessing that there's some underlying reason for all these groups coming to prominence?
     
  9. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Yeah. People are racists when push comes to shove.
     
  10. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Because the leadership of these parties have scapegoated all of their respective government’s problems on immigrants? Because they’ve stopped using restraint when promoting their racist views, and this has worked with enough segments of society to give them non-trivial political power, which has in turn further legitimized their racist views, which in turn increases their power further?

    Yup, that’s the main reason, and there’s a lot of evidence to back that up.

    And I’m talking far right of center, ethnonationalist parties, not your typical center-right.
     
  11. InterestingLurker

    InterestingLurker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2011
    I would say that it has much to do with classism and racism in much of the West. And I do consider class to be apart of it. That, and neoliberalism has created a crisis in which economic conditions are stagnant and even declining. It is much the same in America and Canada to a degree under the Trudeau and previously the Harper administrations. Neoliberalism allows politicians to say "Your declining standard of living? It's because those immigrants are stealing your jobs!" or "Those people you see that just entered our domain are the reason why, as if by coincidence, your wages haven't risen even when things have gotten more expensive!"

    When the economic conditions of people worsens, the worst aspects of their character comes out in the open. Politicians like Trump in America, Victor Orban in Poland, and the Vox in Spain have used their populist rhetoric laced with racist insinuations in order to mask the economic decline of their land and then doing more of the same neoliberal policies that Republicans and Democrats in America have done for decades now. That they don't point out that neoliberal capitalism is the reason why their plight as appeared in recent years... is incredibly dishonest and they are leading their followers tragically off a cliff.

    Having experienced racism against myself, I know that it exists. I have seen other people be the objects of racism as well. So I know that it was already there to begin with.

    Which leads me back to the topic at hand in this thread: I feel that Luke Skwyalker was a good example of a lower-class character in fiction (he appeared at least to be in state of some poverty and a farmer at that) and I hope that Star Wars experiments with more people that aren't necessarily financially stable, so to speak. Basically, I hope that poverty is explored more in Star Wars. Obviously, class diversity, I would say, is just as important as racial, ethnic, sexual, and gender diversity.

    @anakinfansince1983

    @DarthPhilosopher
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Elysium did a good job with class diversity, and I would not be opposed to a similar type movie in the Star Wars universe.
     
  13. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    I agree. Rey wasn't a bad character because of her gender. She was just simply a very badly written character and that was true for pretty much all characters in the ST. What they did to Luke... ugh. What I wish is that they would have just gone with stories/characters inspired by the Legends books. For example, Jayson and Jaina Solo would have made a great characters for the ST. Considering what happened with Jayson, Jaina in particular could have been a perfect protagonist for the ST. Her character was so well written and anyone could relate to her because she wasn't just a good female character, she was a good character. Oh what could have been...

    Sorry, my tangent soap box rant is over. :p

    Unfortunately I've noticed that one tends to lead directly to the other. When I see virtue signaling going on, it's almost a guarantee that the actual product is going to suck.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    This could easily be the case you you judging the film before you see it because of something you've read.
     
  15. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I agree. The problem I have is that those who complain about “virtue signaling” are usually interested in even less diversity than the token kind, not more. Create a brilliant character who is also a woman or black, and they’ll find a way to argue that it’s just virtue signaling, and not real diversity. Then when you ask them if they want real diversity, they ultimately say no, we just want good characters. And if most of those characters happen to be white males? So be it. Because characters, not diversity. It’s almost always a very disingenuous position, because they not only don’t want virtue signaling in their films, they simply don’t think diversity is a virtue. That’s core to their beliefs. The character of a person is the only thing that can be virtuous. A society of tolerance that includes a diversity of peoples is simply not virtuous to them, and so they find no value in it. And they therefore find no value in either signaling it superficially, or showing it with substance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  16. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Except that's not the case at all. People are very capable of watching a movie and judging it for its own merits, despite the marketing done beforehand. All I'm saying is, in my experience at least, when a film creator goes out of their way to virtue signal, the final product tends to be awful. A couple of examples from recent years are: Terminator Dark Fate, The Star Wars ST, Birds of Prey, and Ghostbusters 2016. They each should have been awesome but ended up being badly written with horrible characters and they each had loads of virtue signaling being done before they were even released. Maybe it's a coincidence but I seriously doubt it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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  17. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Have you read any studies that back up the notion that many of those that complain about virtue signaling are being disingenuous and that not wanting diversity is core to their beliefs? Or that they believe there is no value held in having a society of diversity? I consider myself an independent that leans conservative and I know quite a few people on both sides of the political aisle. Besides a couple of people that I've known from the generations older than myself (usually born before the 70s, I'd say), I can't think of anyone that I know that has ever shown a bigoted attitude towards those that are different from themselves, either blatantly or subtly. I'm talking about interactions with people that I work with, live around, or hang out with as friends. Granted, my personal experience is not a scientific study but I would be willing to bet that I'm not alone in my experience. I firmly believe in MLK's dream of all people being judged by their character, not by skin color (and I add other non-character traits). To me, if you believe in that dream, you literally don't see people at all for their physical traits. So yes, I consider their character the ultimate test of virtue. Their physical traits shouldn't matter in the slightest. That's my entire point. Frankly, I think it's insulting when I see people continue to focus on physical traits and how "virtuous" they are for doing so. Isn't there more to a person than that?
     
  18. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I don't know how to respond to this. It just seems like potential confirmation bias, or the fact that when there are overt politics in a film you write the film off.
     
  19. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    You are free to think what you want. All I can do is tell you how I feel about a subject. If you don't want to believe me, that's your right. Isn't freedom of speech and thought great?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m not seeing any so-called “virtue signalling” in the ST. Rey and Finn were both written according to bad traditional stereotypes.
     
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  21. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Rose Tico and Canto Bight basically exist to voice Rian Johnson's virtue signals.
     
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  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It’s not “virtue signalling” to acknowledge that war profiteering is evil, and Rose lecturing Finn serves the purpose of putting Finn into the bad traditional stereotype of “dumb black man”.
     
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  23. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    It certainly is virtue signalling when it has nothing to do with the story being told. Rose (Rian) is virtue signalling to us the viewers, not Finn. Virtue signaling can happen at the same time as inadvertently causing what you see as a bad stereotype.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Stories can have a message relating to politics and values, especially correct ones, such as war profiteering is evil. And maybe “war profiteering is evil” is part of the story.

    And if a story sent a message that I disagreed with, such as “it’s perfectly OK for companies to lobby governments to kill people for profit,” then I would not view the company as “signalling its virtues,” just promoting really ****ty “values” as a positive. See also: “It is natural and moral for women to fix bad men by romancing them.” The ST sent that message, and it wasn’t “virtue signalling.”
     
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  25. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Yeah but it wasn't a part of the story. It was a tacked on virtuous fact, along with slavery is evil, and animal cruelty is wrong. It is blatant virtue signalling.

    That would be evil signalling lol, who would think that is a virtuous thing to say?

    That message isn't virtue signalling. That is the story being a bad stereotype. Rian Johnson (and JJ Abrams) did not intend to specifically give you that message.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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