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Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by Pro Scoundrel , Nov 20, 2016.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Nothing wrong with including “war profiteering, slavery, and animal cruelty are evil” as part of the story.

    I’m not seeing the problem here or why that inclusion would be offensive.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Calling out "virtue signalling" is itself virtue signalling. It's such a stupid term.
     
  3. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    There is nothing wrong with including that message as part of a story. But, for the third time, it isn't part of TLJ's story, it is one character/location preaching Rian Johnson's virtuous opinions. Of course I agree with a number of them, it isn't offensive, but I don't need to be randomly told these things in a Star Wars movie made by the super rich using money that comes from a corporation that only cares about gaining more money and uses chinese toy factories that treat workers like slaves in dreadful workplace conditions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  4. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    This.
     
  5. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    How so?
     
  6. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    This.

    Nobody, that calls out someone for virtue signalling, thinks they are doing something good by doing so and nobody calls out someone elses virtue signalling in order to look good. Calling out virtue signalling is obviously not in itself virtue signalling, and it is a needed term to describe a certain behaviour. It is not stupid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
    Vezner likes this.
  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    You reckon?
     
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  8. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Could we say there is no such thing as virtue signaling? I'm not jumping into the fray here, just getting in a few words.

    from wikipedia: Virtue signalling is a pejorative neologism for the conspicuous expression of moral values.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

    According to wikipedia, this expression has been borrowed from evolutionary biology and put into a pejorative neologism. If this is a pejorative expression, it creates an opportunity to defame an actor or defame the character they are portraying. The character development is either believable or non-believable to anyone's subjective opinion. It seems like this term is an attempt to label certain actors and characters. This term allows audience members to "shoot down" character development as "virtue signaling." So, to me, this term is an attempt to put labels on people and aliens. I'm going to enjoy my films and shows without this term that brings in someone's personal baggage.

    Final thought:
    How can a film surprise us if we go in with the notion that something is virtue signaling. It's like saying you know everything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
    Emperor Ferus and EHT like this.
  9. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    "Virtue signaling" is a pretty meaningless term, because storytelling has always had a moral at the heart of it. That's why we have the expression "The moral of the story is...".

    "Virtue signaling", as a term, can be summed up as...

    1. "I didn't like how the message was executed in the story."
    2. "I didn't like the message."

    It's difficult to tell which is which sometimes.

    I've definitely seen #1 happen in stories plenty of times. Especially in films. A good message can be delivered badly, and hurt the effectiveness of the point.

    Number two is a disagreement from the viewer with the morality of the storyteller. And the quality of the storytelling is irrelevant in that case.

    A good example is Shakespeare's "The Taming Of The Shrew". It's a very well written story that basically makes a comedy of why women should be subservient to men. It's a terrible message, but told in a way that makes it seem palatable on the surface because of how good a writer Shakespeare is, and how he develops the characters. The "Shrew" is written to be very unlikeable and unsympathetic, so the audience is in favor of her "Taming". It's about a larger message being given a pass because of how the audience feels about the very specific characters and circumstances in that one story.

    The "virtue signaling" term makes it seem like people didn't understand that moral messages have always been a fundamental part of storytelling. It just isn't always done well.
     
  10. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    3. "I agree with the message but do not want to hear it from a source that profits/takes advantage from not following that message."
     
    The Chalk Jedi likes this.
  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Ha, you realise most filmmakers aren't in control of how massive multinational corporations conduct themselves? Should they not express themselves when they work for those companies?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  12. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Well, I'm afraid your out of luck there, unless you only watch independent films. Everything else is corporate product for profit. The push and pull of creators working in that system has been a problem since filmmaking began.
     
  13. Vezner

    Vezner Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Trying to deny that virtue signaling is a thing is basically trying to bury your head in the sand because you don't like being challenged. It's the same with denying that TDS exists, which it most certainly does.
     
    Blackhole E Snoke likes this.
  14. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Oh, well if you're going to be rude about it then I'm your huckleberry.

    The term was invented in 2015, by James Bartholomew. It's a modern fad term, with dubious credibility, that tries to describe something, in a derogatory fashion, that's been part of storytelling for thousands of years. Basically, it's a way for people to insult moral messages in films and stories, because they feel they're being talked down to.

    And yes, TDS exists (though I'm not sure how it's relevant to this discussion). It was just called confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance before Trump. Again, all of these modern terms are just renaming things that have been around for a long time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  15. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Basically it implies someones intention, which, you very rarely do. It's just about pointing out that you don't like it when someone expressed a left-leaning view and you assume that their motivation is not honest.
     
  16. IG_2000

    IG_2000 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2008
    you’re virtue signaling by defending people who virtue signal from people who claim virtue signaling is virtue signaling. I’m signaling my virtue by telling you this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  17. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Yeah, I think it is worse than that though. It is attacking someone who is expressing a virtuous idea because you don't like the virtuous idea and want to discredit the idea along with the person.

    If you look at conservative culture these days, this is pretty easy to see; the examples are endless. Diversity is bad and racism no longer exists. Immigrants are thugs and criminals, and need to be kept out. These sentiments are explicitly expressed with impunity on Fox News and by the Trump government. So obviously, they dislike and want to discredit expressions to the contrary that may show sympathy or support to diversity, gay rights, immigrants, etc. It's not like they are even subtle in their disdain for these things.
     
  18. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    The highlighted are my feelings exactly! I long for the day when, instead of making the praise of diversity and inclusion the focus of a film/franchise, we can all just accept said diversity as the norm. You know, kind of how we are in everyday life. And I agree the quality of the story should always come first. When we start focusing on other external things, the story suffers-as we've recently seen. I don't feel it's necessary to place on a pedestal the race/gender of the character, just make it a well written character we can all relate to, enjoy and root for!

    I do agree that Finn was put into that unfortunate stereotype. And that is why I didn't like Rose as a character-not cos of her message or her gender/race, but because of how she treated one of my favorite characters in the ST the whole time.

    Not to mention, I don't really feel that it took up all that much of the story. The whole Canto Bight sequence from beginning to end was kind of a pointless side plot-that also actually failed, to add to the uselessness-but Rose's whole point about war profiteering was only really a moment in the film, and IMO fit well, considering the place they were in and where Rose came from. Really what it did for me was made it clear in the story that the whole idea of good guys and bad guys isn't so simple as Resistance vs. First Order. That the evil is more widespread than Finn realizes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  19. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    We need more aliens. We always need more aliens. In fact, I want the new main hero to be a non-human character. And if audiences have troubles identifying with an alien, its just prove they're speciesists!
     
    guittarjedi likes this.
  20. ThePhilistineCritic

    ThePhilistineCritic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Just write great characters. Lando Calrissian and Princess Leia were both great characters. I mean, hell, one of my favorite action heroes of all time is Ellen Ripley. She was a goddamn badass! I still do a fist bump every time she gets into that forklift and says, “Get away from her, you bitch!”

    Best action movie of the 2010s was Mad Max: Fury Road in my opinion…and Furiosa (aka the real hero of the movie) was a badass! And it actually integrated a progressive feminist message into the story in a way that felt natural and not tacked-on (I’m looking at you, Rian Johnson).

    If the writing’s there, and the character’s there, and the actor is there, go for it. Whatever problems I had with the sequel trilogy, I actually thought it was kinda cool that the main young Jedi protagonist was a woman this time around. It was time for young girls to have their own Jedi hero to look up to.
     
  21. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I think we’re ready for this.

    At least, I am. I like cats and dogs better than humans.
     
  22. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    A twilek would be a good choice for a main lead. Alien but still has that human like appearance.
     
    afrojedi and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  23. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Which usually makes them look like cosplayers. No, I want to see more advanced animatronic alien faces like The Child. An alien that actually looks alien but still looks real and has facial expressions that enables us to relate with the character.
     
    Tython Awakening likes this.
  24. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Why not both?
     
  25. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    If the rumors (or more like wishes) are true, we could get Ahsoka live action show.
     
    InterestingLurker likes this.