ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

I wish I could forget her as easily.

 

Rose Tico is a great character, she just deserve a better arc

 

She was so great at the start.

Rose - like Holdo - falls victim to the script beats they were forced to serve.

Rose started out as a something living and breathing and then ended up as a public announcer having to make a speech on Crait the writer wanted to land, just to tie the movie together. It felt as if RJ got bored of her development.

Then she kissed Finn.

It was all so jarring.

If she'd been allowed to grow organically she could have been a real fan favourite.

 

Rose's character was a mess and I wish she wasn't so unlikable. It's probably the reason she doesn't immediately resonate as "new lead." Hell, fun fact: TLJ was when I viewed Connix as less of a "Oh look, Carrie's daughter. That's pretty cool." To "Wow, I kinda like her character even though I know nothing about her and she just kinda sticks around Poe this time around."

Seeing Black Panther was refreshing to me because I didn't see any stupid tropes like the comic relief black guy, or the mean thuggish character. That's what happens when a black person is allowed to have control over a project, WHILE making sure to tell a cohesive story that fits in the overall narrative. Even the twist, while subverting the expectation and telling the REAL truth, doesn't completely flip over the story. It beats out Star Wars in both critical and box office reception.

But the characters of color themselves were treated with respect, something that so many people claim is such a difficult and complicated thing to do. The secondary protagonists were still able to serve a valid and viable place in the story without seeming useless or tacked on for the hero to outshine at every turn. The hero was well-written as well, even when making questionable decisions (without coming off as wildly ooc, irrational or less likable).

It's a similar situation with Wonder Woman and Patty Jenkins. I just hope that LF and JJ are able to take that into account when working on Star Wars. We're approaching the final installment of the trilogy and people still view Finn as a useless character, Rey as a stupid character, and Rose as an unlikable character (and Poe as a sexist, irresponsible hot-shot prick) when they deserve so much better. They're supposed to outshine the villains, not outshine each other with an unbalanced dynamic that makes one or two people make the other heroes look worthless in comparison.

Black Panther did that perfectly.

 

Gasp! you mean no one had a problem with the women kicking all kinds of butt and at least one of them being nearly on-par as a warrior with the title character? This can't be, it's almost like we can have both strong men and women warriors in the same movie. What movie is this where there's no character designated to be a laughingstock and a joke of a fighter? Are we in a parallel universe or something?
While we're at it, where are all those bots that supposedly voted down TLJ on RT?

 

Yeah exactly. And notice how there are the hero and the villain are allowed to be strikingly similar and connected without ruining the hero and making him look like an idiot? It's truly remarkable how Black Panther had EVERYTHING going against it, yet still came out on top in box critical and box office revenue.

It was amazing to go into a movie where I didn't have to worry about HOW MY FAVORITE CHARACTER WOULD BE TREATED.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...esses-dissect-movie-whitewashing-twist-990956

When THR interviewed Japanese fans about the whitewashing claims, they weren't bothered by it, and neither was Mamoru Oshii, who directed the 1995 anime version. How do you feel about their response?

Yoshihara: People in Japan worship white people.

Kato-Kiriyama: Even in the story, there are Japanese people involved in creating these beings and they also may very well see the ideal human being as a white woman. So you're sort of messed up all the way around.

Agena: Yes! I felt more messed up watching this movie. It reinforced my own personal messed-up standards of physical beauty.

Okatsuka: This is an important conversation to have.

Yoshihara: Even my ex-boyfriend, who is Asian-American, said, "What Asian lady has a body like Scarlett Johansson?"

Agena: There are certain priorities there.

Okatsuka: It's this weird thing where Asian-Americans or Asian nationals living here like me, working in film, are fighting both our motherland and white producers here. We're walking this in-between where I scream at Hollywood but I'm also like, "Why'd you do that, Japan?!" Et tu, Brute, on both sides.

[...]
Hollywood prides itself on being very progressive, very pro-diversity. One common defense of this movie is that it's incredibly diverse.

Yoshihara: Yeah, a bunch of the Asian people got killed. All the minor roles are Asians who didn't have lines. But all the core characters except Beat Takeshi and the mother were mainly white.

Kato-Kiriyama: The question itself has to be challenged. Why are you trying to drum up examples of people of color or specifically Japanese who are OK with it? Is it so you feel justified in maintaining your norm? Don't you want to know why people are hurt? Aren't you curious, as an artist? Isn't there anywhere in your progressive, liberal mind that's curious about the people that are feeling hurt?

Okatsuka: I don't think people are curious about the hurt. That's why organizations have had to start presenting hard numbers. "You want money? Here are numbers. The more people of color you put in something, the more people watch it."

 

After watching Black Panther and the incredible female characters in that movie, my view on Rose got even worse than it already was.

 

the entire thread here link

 

@Jedi Jessy

Interesting quotes.

I hate the term culture wars, but it is fascinating to me how much more passionately these issues are raised in North America than in many other places.

It was Asian Americans rather than Japanese themselves getting all worked up over Ghost in the Shell. This is not to say they had no right to be upset. It is fascinating, though.

It's also why TLJ touched a nerve.

People are looking to their art and recontextualizing and reinterpreting it through the prism of their own political views (both left and right). It's an age old tactic of ideologues.

It's understandable. So much culture has been appropriated in the last several centuries (one can even point at SW and its liberal use of Eastern mysticism) that there is a lot of guilt about this.

My comments in this thread have always tried to turn the debate away from diversity being an issue in TLJ (it's not) and back to the basics of story telling.

Blank canvases are so much easier to paint over. TLJ was too blank. This is my problem. Not that Holdo is a woman, only that her character is so poorly realised. And now we have this horrible fight by the so-called SJWs and Alt-right to seize the initiative snd appropriate SW for their own agenda.

Sadly once the messaging war became apparent, the creators of the movie actuslly chose a side and planted a flag by declaring how progressive they were by intention. All this did was inflame the subtext and give the crazies in the alt-right camp more ammunition.

But the really unfortunate knock on effect of this decision was that the 50%+ people who are not massively into this movie are instantly tarred with the same brush as if the ONLY way to interpret thid film is in tbe context of the current political environment.

And so here we are. Our SW is now an open battleground, fought over by people who really don't care about SW at all. And those who genuinely love or have grievances with the film are being lumped into one side or another in this ridiculous narrative about Diversity and representaion.

It's sad to watch.

 

Well it makes sense that Asian Americans would be more upset than Japanese people about whitewashing an anime. Japanese people have no shortage of media starring Japanese actors to watch. Asian-Americans, in contrast, are lucky to see people that look like them cast in bit parts in US media, even if that film/show takes place somewhere where you'd see plenty of Asians in real life (e.g. compare the proportion of Asians in the main cast of a typical US medical drama to the proportion of Asians you see on staff in actual hospitals).

Also, I don't get the implication that people talking about problems with diversity/representation in TLJ don't really care about Star Wars. I have problems with TLJ that relate to representation (e.g. Finn's arc) AND the broader saga (e.g. whether the ST makes sense as a follow-up to the PT/OT). It's not one or the other.

 

Wow, so now it is those who are critical of TLJ that are the REAL victims? Back to the old Fox News bit that political correctness is the TRUE damaging factor, and not minority/gender oppression, or that it is somehow comparable by a rational, sane, knowledgeable person. Those who arguing for more diversity are equated with those on the Alt-right? That's really exactly like Donald Trump's statement equating anti-racism protesters with the white supremacists- "there are good people on both sides." Really? There are good people that wear the white hood? People really believe what they want to believe, no matter how wildly irrational.

 

Art imitates life imitates art. Really talking about how art has impacted our lives is important.

And let's not forget to separate in-universe concerns with out-of-universe ones. No matter what in-universe argument is made for whitewashing a character, that doesn't remove the out-of-universe concerns. For instance, the Hollywood practice of making Asian characters played by Caucasian actors a very regular thing makes an impact on the psyche, even if only subconsciously. A very negative impact in my opinion.

Also, while we can always speculate, making some broad claim as to the psyche of another country like Japan always rings hollow. Why Japanese aren't bothered by Hollywood whitewashing can be attributed to a number of factors (as Dragonchic pointed out), never mind that even a more ethnically homogeneous country will have diverse opinions. Using it as an excuse to not cast Asians and dismiss Asian American concerns is just ignoring the issue at hand.

As for TLJ, the so-called diversity feels far more like tokenism to me. Some different looking faces, sure, but it's not a kind of diversity that either inspires different kinds of peoples, or a kind of diversity that challenges our status quo. In fact, TLJ's casting felt very safe, despite any marketing claims to the opposite.

 

I'm really hoping that this makes more movie companies realize that poc film makers/actors can lead to huge successes critically and financially. Especially LFL

 

Should we read into this? How the hell did he forget to mention Rose?

 

Doesn't sound like he has much planned for her character if he forgets to mention her. It's kinda scary when the director forgets to mention someone who's supposed to be a lead? Uh-oh

The new generation of heroes are supposed to be two men and two women. Three of which are people of color. Figured that would be worth mentioning...

 

I see her as more of the Lando role. Side character who contributes but will be away from the big three come the big battle. Unless of course they decide to branch Rose and Finn relationship. But I’m really hoping they don’t and Finn and Rey will be together (doesn’t need to be romantic) in 9.

 

Rose Tico also was forgotten in TLJ trailers/teasers... I think she just show up in one tv spot for 2 seconds. Lucasfilm want to be known as pro-diversity without do too much. They will release Han Solo movie with just 2 poc important characters (one of them, Thandie Newton's character, isn't in the poster and haven't an individual poster), it has less diversity than TFA/TLJ/RO.

Rose Tico in the posters

 

In Abrams' defense, Rose was a particularly forgettable character. On the other hand, it's his job to remember these kinds of things so maybe he should get some heat.

Going into Ep IX, it will be endlessly fascinating to watch the Abrams smoke and mirrors show. He is a master at promoting his movies, managing critical expectation, and working the PR industry. I think Disney brought him back for his ability to spin as much as direct movies and this will be his greatest challenge yet.

 

He caught a lot of flack for outright lying in his promotional efforts for Star Trek Into Darkness and has since admitted himself that was super-bad call. So I wouldn`t say he is masterful at it.

 

Oh he's definitely screwed up a few times and his track record is far from perfect. Personally, I think he is massively overrated as both a director and producer. At the same time, I think it's fair to say that he is in a league of his own when it comes to promoting movies. That he was the one tapped to reboot SW is evidence enough imho.

 

Without going into spoiler territory there are reasons why that is so and will become clear when you see the movie.

 

You can post the spoilers (with the [/SPOILER/]). I want to know the reason

 

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/no-spoilers-for-the-upcoming-movies-are-allowed-here.50039492/