ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Finn is 23, he could represent the life of a young adult but Rian prefer Kylo, a 30 years old, to show "the transition from adolescence into adulthood"

 

Hopefully they'll portray him less as the comical black friend stereotype who is always the butt of a joke and more like someone who has grown as a person and can inspire others to follow his example (me being mad at the absence of that Finn cut scene in the actual movie).

 

So far the ST hasn't put the characters in a position to shape the galaxy on their own. I was hoping for an arc that would thrust Rey, Finn, and Poe into the Resistance's last hope and Kylo emerging with all the potential and anger his grandfather once had. But it seems like that was still to be the job of the original three, while the new characters are continue trying to learn their way. I'm not sure how that all changes effectively in the concluding episode, but I hope it does.

 

To be fair, isn't that the current setup for IX?

 

Though this is off topic and I'll end it here:
I was hoping this would be coming to a head somewhere in the middle of VIII. Kylo who is supreme leader doesn't have the stature of Sheev or Vader, and Finn, Rey and Poe aren't where Leia, Han, or Luke were at the beginning of ESB imo.

 

@godisawesome Exactly, you summed up the concerns I couldn't articulate perfectly.

 

Ha, it's funny. I recognize a few people bashing the post are from JCF. And I recognize that those people are Kylo stans/reylos. So while I Was always suspicious of their viewpoint, I now have my proof at least they can't call me a liar. Talk about a serious empathy gap...

Yeah, I think after IX I'm calling it quits on any new SW projects. Of course, they could never understand that viewpoint. The only thing they can understand is Ben Solo's (even though we hate skywalker protags) fictional tragic backstory and tone-deaf arguments as to why no one outside of white characters will ever be important enough. And how Finn being a hero alongside Rey takes away from her story (another nobody)...but not when it's Kylo. Then it's ok.

SW really has been a terrible experience. I guess I'm going back over to Marvel for a while.

 

Wow there’s some explicitly racist crap in there. I didn’t bother reading the comments until you referenced them, but that is pretty awful. Also, there was a hell of a lot of “toxic” bashing of JB. Should we hold our breath for the media to criticize toxic Reylo/TLJ fans?

 

Really? I don't see familiar JCF people on that reddit page other than yourself. I also notice there are a fair amount of Finn-supportive statements on that page.

If there was an intriguing darksider black villain struggling with the pull to the light and compassion for the hero I would be interested in that character too.

 

Except SHOW ME his struggle. It really means little if he prattles on about how "conflicted" he is if he makes the wrong choice every single time, it's just hollow words. Show him actually DOING something selfless (and no saving Rey doesn't count) and then MAYBE I'll reconsider.

 

I think we can all agree that bigotry is bad and racism is deplorable, but let's avoid making broad, sweeping statements about groups of fans that like a specific character or ship.

 

Fair point, sorry about that. Rough morning. But you're right @oncafar, most of the comments are agreeing or respectfully disagreeing. But bashing is always louder for some reason.

My main point was that people rush to say Finn is a bad character and that's why his story is bad. Or that no one would care about a stormtrooper. But I was trying to remind them that his character had the most potential but it's been squandered by underwhelming/lazy writing. THAT'S why his character looks bad. Not because he's just automatically bad by default. They blame the character or the actor more than they blame the writing itself.

 

It's all good. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has those days.

 

The character is a product of writing and acting (I personally agree that it's writing and character concept). I've complained a lot about people bashing Rey and I really dislike Rose bashing. And for me most of this centers around how they are female characters and I feel like there is often an underlying double-standard about female characters in which they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But OTOH, some people really hate Rey as a character and as much as I think sexism accounts for some of it, it certainly doesn't account for all of it. Even if I sometimes feel Rey is being discussed in a misogynistic manner at times, the core complaint is often going back to her characterization. One thing I can agree with is that Rey is not given a lot of backstory in TFA (she is a mystery), and TLJ doesn't devote (IMO) enough time/work to developing Rey in terms of her backstory and character.

I do feel like TLJ cuts a lot of corners with both Rey and Finn and I don't really like a lot of what is done with Finn's character. Naturally, in my biased way, I think the issue goes back to the beginning, to not being able to create an original story in some ways (not all ways). Finn's original concept (before he was Finn) IIRC was as some kind of Han Solo imitation character. Can they not conceive of a new character? They want to copy Han, really? Then this rogue-ish smuggler Han-ish character evolves into a defecting storm trooper. Although I do think that the idea was that Finn never fit in as a storm trooper and has always been pretending to be one of the FO disguising his empathetic and social personality, and I get that, I still don't think that alone makes up for how the character concept was slurred from the beginning. Why would the defecting storm trooper be some kind of Han Solo-ish character? Why not conceive of a more fitting personality for this character who was raised by the FO?

The ST problems all start at the beginning with TFA. They start with not having very good character concepts IMO. TLJ actually carries on this issue with its new characters, Holdo and Rose. The amusing thing is that there's an entire book with Holdo in it, but TLJ didn't use the Holdo personality from the Leia novel (aside from her having purple hair). There's just a lot of character messes in the ST, and Finn and Rey are at the eye of the storm.

They can't even seem to assign Finn alone the Han Solo-ish character role as I felt like TLJ was still chasing this character type by trying to have Poe be more of this parallel. And it's like we even HAD Han Solo himself in TFA! Anyway, maybe there's a deeper meaning to chasing Han Solo throughout the trilogy and they made their Han origin story movie too... So clearly there's this huge Han focus. But I think Finn should have been removed from this whole Han-worship from the beginning. Finn is not Sam. As soon as defecting storm trooper was born, that meant "Sam" isn't in this movie. And if all Sam ever was, was a Han-imitation, then good riddance.

Anyway, this really (what I'm saying) is off topic and more fitting for the ST criticism thread than this one.

 

I do think the writing is the main issue, but I think it started in TFA. IIRC, Finn's character was originally slated to be a smuggler until somebody, I believe Kasdan, said, "Hey, wouldn't it be interesting to make him a defected stormtrooper?" (That's not a verbatim quote, I'm paraphrasing.) The problem was that they either didn't have enough time or take enough time to fully develop that idea, and it showed. There were inconsistencies in the characterization from the start. In no way do I feel JB is at fault. He's a talented and charismatic actor.

My biggest criticism of TLJ is that I felt Finn was sidelined a bit in favor of Poe's expanded role, especially given that Poe was originally supposed to die early in TFA. Keeping Poe alive and giving him more to do ate into Finn's role IMO. Also, and I could be wrong, but I got the feeling that Rian was not as interested in Finn as he was in some of the other characters. But I wouldn't go as far as to say his character "looks bad". I don't think it's all doom and gloom and I'm hopeful for his arc in IX.

 

That's because according to Kasdan, in the TFA commentary, Poe is supposed to be the character that follows the Han Solo archetype. I think you're right that Finn is supposed to be something different. Unfortunately many fans don't know that so they just assign the Han archetype to Finn. I don't think Rian understood that either so we got what we got in TLJ.

I ask myself the same question. I wonder the same thing when Disney announces yet another live-action remake of one of their classics.

 

I assign it to Finn because I know that a Han-like character is what Finn evolved out of, and in TFA the way Finn and Han interact is like Han is talking with younger him (that's how Han regards him almost), and also Finn has some goofy qualities that resemble Han's goofy qualities. Finn's clothes in the leaked IX photos are based on Han clothing designs too (though I don't think that counts as I think they've been referencing Han in Rey and Poe costumes as well). I am honestly not sure "they" (everyone involved - Kasdan, JJA, RJ, etc.) can make up their minds about who is their Han-reference character.

Finn has a similar extroverted, social, charismatic, capable-of-being charming, natural leadership qualities, gift of gab (able to BS, but badly) personality to Han. Like Han, he is used in comedic ways. In TFA he parallels ANH Han a bit in how he just wants to take off, not help the Resistance. His overall arc is about coming around first (in TFA) to help Rey > his sense of self-preservation (it's like how Han came back and helped Luke); and then (in TLJ) to help the Resistance > his sense of self-preservation that now includes Rey. So there's even a rogue element to the character (which is fitting with a defector). The only thing missing is the sharper and more scoundrel like aspect of Han, which I think TLJ tried to manifest in Poe and it came out all wrong.

So I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if I could be a time traveling fly on the wall listening to all the character discussions, if people suggested Finn was like Han or made comparisons with Han several times. I've even pondered that Finn and Poe are like two sides of Han and both based on Han.

Anyway, the efforts to manifest Han in other characters comes off as way too try-hard to me. There is really only one Han: Han.

I'd be interested in the direct quote though about Poe being the Han archetype and would want to analyze it to see if people are saying that from the beginning Poe is meant to be the exclusive Han archetype (though how that can be true when Finn evolved out of a Han-like character, I don't know).

PS I think I meant Skyler instead of "Sam" in previous post.

 

Wasn't Kasdan's comments on Poe saying "we needed someone to go forth with that Han Solo swagger."

 

I do not know...

 

Anyway all of the 3 ST heroes have blended features of the OT heroes.

Rey: Han's job of flying and maintaining the Falcon; Luke's Jedi-in-training storyline; Leia's no-nonsense female personality

Poe: Luke's job of a x-wing dog fighter pilot; Leia's Resistance/Rebel storyline; Han's experienced, cooler personality

Finn: Leia's job of providing intel; Han's storyline of learning to fight for a larger cause; Luke's young boy in-over-his head personality

 

@oncafar Unpopular opinion here: I think Finn's character arc is just as good, if not better in some ways, than Han Solo's. I personally feel that Han Solo is the best character in ANH, but doesn't really get much to do after that other than be in a relationship with Leia. TFA does a great job of making Finn one of the most interesting and distinct characters in the main saga, while TLJ still continues his arc. He still gets more screentime than most of the other characters, he still gets his own moments of victory and emotion, and his relationships with Rey, Rose, Poe, and First Order are deemed as important to the narrative.

I compare Finn and Han Solo all of the time, mostly to dismiss those who say Finn is more like the "Leia" of the story (which is wrong in so many ways because Leia is awesome and should not be used as an insult) than the Han Solo. However, I never thought about their personalities being the same because they are still so different. Complementary and similar in some ways sure (which is why they make a good duo) but still pretty different. Han has a much stronger sense of identity than Finn does and is much more of a smooth talker. Finn is also much nobler and unfailingly compassionate than Han is. Han's defining trait is leadership and willpower. Finn's defining trait is his compassion and bravery.

 

Well, it's long been discussed in the diversity threads that SW needs a WOC as an actress or director, so the TV show certainly is positive in that way; they have made good on it (Chow).

 

Yeah it's great that Jon found a diverse list of directors for The Mandalorian, almost as if (WAIT FOR IT)......

it wasn't that difficult.