ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

I can't leave this alone.

He was a side note character that existed to fall over so that other characters could look better by comparison. The fact that he happened to fall over a lot doesn't change anything.

They were basically writing the first movie at the same time as they were filming it. And the idea that Finn had to be the star of the film by himself is nonsense, he had to not be a complete clown.

Not really. Finn fulfils the 3PO/Jar Jar role in the ST.

 

The decision to begin TLJ immediately after TFA was one big reason for all the poor character development. Had RJ started the story later in time, perhaps a year, then each of the characters could have grown since the last episode. But it's not just Rey, we llterally pick up right where we left off with Finn, which means he has had zero time to think about what has happened. I understand wanting to start with Rey and Luke where we left them, but not at the cost of all character development. Not to say it had to be bad, it could have been great, even with no time between stories. RJ had no clue what he was doing. And KK approved it.

 

They could have easily placed a time jump after Rey meets up with Luke. RJ said the reason for not having one is to find out what happens when they meet (and imho it wasn't worth it based on what we got). That could have given Finn a chance to remain in a coma and heal without the buffoonery and perhaps illustrate the price of his injuries. Additionally, if RJ bothered to have Luke properly train Rey, that time could have also been used to round out Finn's skill sets with the Resistance. It would have been nice to see BTA Finn, learning to pilot or training/leading a special ops team.

 

Enough of mentioning, nearly every time in every single post, that KK "approved" the stuff you didn't like. Yes, we all know she runs Lucasfilm, and that she has the power to approve and disapprove what directors give her. You're not offering some kind of major insight here. And never, not even in the MCU's or CDEU's darkest hours, did I see the studio head get constantly called out for approving mediocre or bad material. The focus was always on the directors and writers. And yet, with KK, it's different for some reason.

 

Is it safe for me to talk about the reception to Rose in Asia (Korea, China, Thailan, Japan) where I am currently living??

Because it's pretty extreme. But for different reasons. Hint: cultural differences.

OTOH, reaction to Glenn from TWD has been stellar. Steven Yeun is now a star in South Korea thanks to his portrayal of Glenn as an Asian American man on that series.

 

This would actually be interesting to read should you feel like sharing it.

 

You live in all those four countries? That’s impressive!

I once mentioned here the reception of Rose and particularly Finn/Rose kiss in Japan, which was pretty harsh. And yeah, that was a lot due to cultural differences.

I don’t know about China or South Korea, I only know TLJ tanked there.

On the other hand, I have the impression that TLJ was pretty well received in Thailand. I can’t read Thai, so I’m not aware of any sentiment against Rose there.

 

Well it comes down superficial reasons.

Audiences in Asia...even more than in the west....want to see characters that are awe inspiring. Smarter, cooler, more competent, prettier, stronger, etc. etc. than them.

Rian Johnson wrote the character of Rose to be a "genuine nerd" and "the type I would hang out with in high school".

This just doesn't resonate in East Asia. In East Asia, especially South Korea, people strive to be at the top of the food chain in terms of social status and that includes: fame, personality, looks, ability, and wealth.

They like to see larger than life characters. They like to see characters who make them go "Wow he/she is so much better than me! I wanna try my best to reach that level!" With Rose, they didn't feel this way. Audiences were baffled as to why she was cast. They didn't know that these days nerd culture in the West is not as stigmatized as it was 10 or 20 years ago.

Rose and Finn both didn't fill those check boxes for audiences in China. A news article was written where someone joked "If it were Will Smith on the poster I'd be more apt to see it" in regards to Finn.

Personally, I feel bad for Kelly Tran. She is a young girl who was optimistic - and this happened to her and it's not her fault - the fault lies with the writer and director.

If trying to be progressive, don't write a character to be a stereotype: "A genuine nerd"....especially to an ethnic group that has historically been type cast as nerdy, martial artists, or scientists.

Steven Yeun in The Walking Dead isn't considered a really handsome guy. But what Asian audiences really seem to like about him is the fact that his character can be replaced with someone who isn't Korean and no one would notice.

Oh man...I'm in Thailand as we speak. It was definitely not well received. My close friend in Bangkok is my college roommate in California (he was studying abroad in the US)...he told me all about the reception to the movie in Thailand. They liked TFA. They really didn't like TLJ. I can ask him to show me citations/receipts if anyone likes

 

It did very well in the Thai BO though (the drop from TFA BO wasn't as significant as, idk, compared to Japan, and let's not mention China or S Korea because that was a disaster) and when I was in Thailand I searched for local reviews (using google translator) and got too many 5-star and 4-star equivalent results, so that’s why I had that impression.

But eh, what do I know. It’s interesting to hear input from the locals though.

 

Ah ok, I didn't get any info on actual BO numbers...more just the thoughts on the film.

Yes in South Korea it was indeed pretty much a disaster. I lived in Korea on and off for the past 8 years (my parents are from Korea). Star Wars, while accessible here unlike China, was never a big deal. The prequels did alright numbers at the BO.....most people in Korea under 30 were exposed to SW by the prequels....then The Force Awakens came and was by far the most popular SW movie ever there. It got a new generation of kids interested in SW. Made around 24 or 25 million at the BO......then TLJ made less than 8 million.

By comparison...in South Korea Black Panther is #2 or #3 in the entire world BO. Infinity War made 88.5 million in SK. Civil War also did crazy good BO numbers.

 

^ Yeah, Marvel's success story in markets that don't have a traditional American comics culture has been discussed plentifully here already. I do think there are some lessons that SW can take from Marvel.
Although one can argue that part of the reason why Black Panther did specially great in S Korea was because there is an entire segment of the movie that was filmed there, and thus were was more buzz around it.

 

Oh yeah definitely. BP got a boost for that. Though one could say Marvel saw the potential there. Iron Man is so loved in Korea. Tony Stark's personality and especially his sarcasm is really not the type that Koreans exactly relate to. I've had conversations with so many here as to how the hell do translators handle Tony's sarcasm with subtitiles? It seems almost impossible. Trust me being a teacher there....trying to explain sarcasm is one of the greatest challenges. My mom is one of the few I know who catches on to sarcastic remarks while others have a puzzled look on their faces.

But they love his rich playboy status and his technology. The fact that he has no physical prowess but is so OP because of his technology and IQ is what makes them love him so much, whereas in the West it feels more like an evenly spread out combination of everything: rich playboy, genius engineer, philanthropist, sarcastic funny guy as a way of covering his emotional scars, etc.

 

I think it’s just that Marvel is more generic and globally accessible. In its imagery, humor, formula, setting, flashiness, etc. It’s like global corporate branding. Make it as generic and flashy as possible (including changing your company name to just an acronym) and global audiences will be reached more easily.

Star Wars being seen as sci-fi, as opposed to the more Earthbound (or Earth-connected) MCU (and more obviously fantasy-esque Avatar), is also a hindrance to its global accessibility. Sci-fi doesn’t play as well in many markets in Asia and Europe. So there’s a bit of an inherent wall there, that Star Wars may never overcome. And for many Asian markets, the flashier fantasy elements of the MCU are more appealing than the more mundane elements of Star Wars heroics, including its main characters. They’re mostly regular people, and gods and monsters are more appealing to the cinema-going audiences in many Asian markets. That’s not a judgment either. It’s a legitimate difference in taste, which is supported by quite a bit of research.

To me, though, that’s OK. I don’t want Lucasfilm to push Star Wars in a more generic, flashy, pop-fantasy, gods and monsters, comic book movie direction simply to reach a wider global audience. Build on its existing strengths, spend money wisely, and sell it to a somewhat smaller audience. I don’t care one bit about beating the MCU’s global numbers, and I don’t think LFL or Disney should either. Just adjust to the reality of a smaller global market for it, and make money within that space. A little more frugality with budgets won’t hurt. And IMO, will result in higher-quality films.

 

@Bor Mullet
But Star Wars was once the pioneer of that kind of genre. Star Wars was once the generic adventure movie with a unique success formula that was accessible to both kids and adults.

I disagree that SW being sci-fi is a hindrance though, because SW was always more space fantasy than anything else. Gundam, for instance, is pretty popular China and other Asian markets, and it’s more heavy on the sci-fi aspect than SW, despite still leaning on the space fantasy opera style at the end of the day.

Hard sci-fi is hard to sell, whether in Asia or outside of Asia, but fantasy franchises in general, even if they happen to be in space, are not. They are easily digestible. SW should be easily digestible. But if there is one thing that the many reports on China’s reception pointed out, is that TFA was not the best introduction to a franchise in markets where said franchise had no cultural footing. TFA was too rooted in nostalgia and confusing for the most newbie newcomers who had little idea who Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker was or why they should care.

Also, in respect to the Asian market talk, I always like using Japan as the counter-example because SW is still in general a more popular franchise here than Marvel is, and while some nitpick criticism can be traced to cultural differences, the still exceedingly popular reception of the franchise in the most “far East Asian” country you can think of should combat the notion that true appreciation of SW depends on cultural differences or something. It doesn't, it's more about the content and its presentation. It is easier for the average Japanese citizen whose pop culture has been impregnated with SW references for decades, to appreciate/understand TFA and its sequel, as oppose to the average Chinese citizen who was not exposed to the OT nor comes in with a baggage of knowledge and sentiment.


And still, TLJ was equally divisive among Japanese fans as well.

 

I don't think it's just the ST of Star Wars that you can say this about though. I think a lot of what has been produced in US media throughout this decade will be looked at as being part of a specific finite era in which this was the primary motivation. I think we're slowly starting to move away from that, however, and are able to see things as happening in a more organic fashion, versus it being forced. So in that sense, it has served its purpose by bringing those issues to light that had previously been ignored. But overall, in the way certain trends and commonalities were prevalent throughout film and television at different points in the past and in which those periods are known for, I don't think this era will be seen any differently.

 

Characters ascending in status between films is pretty much expected in any other story. The decision to start TLJ immediately after TFA precludes any sort of ascent by the characters.

TLJ would have received a bit of criticism due to not having a resolution to that apparent cliffhanger ending of TFA, but I agree that a lot of bad aspects of TLJ stem from that decision to explicitly depict its resolution, when implication, inferrence and a bit of exposition might have sufficed. An internal time jump - such as what could be implied in TESB before the Falcon limps to Bespin - could also work.

TLJ largely retrod old ground with Finn, character-development-wise, seemingly due to disinterest on the part of the writer. I think this is connected to RJ's evident disinterest in the "star war" plot and the effects of starting TLJ so soon after TFA on it.

If instead it began with Finn as a New Republic Commando, applying his knowledge of the First Order to a counter-insurgency campaign against his old brethren, then the character would be in a better place for future development. There are many ethical dilemmas that wars involve, and it would have been fascinating to see Finn deal with them as an active participant in the war, given how he began as a faceless soldier who refused to commit an atrocity. That would have been a natural continuation of the story that began in TFA.

Would Asian markets have preferred Finn in TLJ had he been more of an elite armoured space marine than just some dude along for the ride?

 

I was shocked that Rian couldn't think of something more compelling for Finn in this movie. Having the guy who became infamous in TFO for betraying them just go into TFO's main headquarters without a proper disguise? My god....then that deleted scene where a Storm Trooper recognizes him...pace palm.

Rian Johnson: The hardest thing for me was to think about why Luke was on the island

-Solution: Luke was there because he walked away from everything....as we fearfully suspected was possible, but not likely....but hey expectations subverted, so it doesn't matter if I chose the nothing plot...the one we thought was impossible because it was too extreme for Luke!!!

Rian Johnson: People wanna know what happens after the cliffhanger ending of TFA

-Solution: Have the film take place ambiguously either seconds after TFA's cliffhanger...or potentially an hours or so BEFORE it....and not have any significant passage of time throughout the rest of the film....after all a time jump mid film would be way too jarring and distracting unlike the 4th wall breaking I keep doing in this film.

Rian Johnson: I don't know who Snoke is.....in fact I'm not interested in his character

-Solution: kill him off with no story because he doesn't think Rey would care who Snoke is...and to explain who this guy is in expository 10 or 20 seconds? Man that would take everyone out of the movie...we need more so called nuanced speech like Snoke explaining to Kylo in detail how he considered him the "Next Vader"......or how Rey has "no place in this story".

Rian Johnson: Don't need to show Luke mourning Han...after all he only mourned Obi-Wan for a minute.

Rian Johnson: "I can't write. I could never write for a living. It takes me forever"

You got that right, can't argue with Rian there.

Rian Johnson: I don't think it's possible to be intellectually processing my thoughts when considering what everyone else wants, nor do I think that would be a good thing.

What a great thing to say in a job interview: "I think it's impossible to please everyone...so in this customer service industry I choose to block out info about what people want and only give them what I want.....hire me to be creative head behind your next project for the consumers!!!"

Guys, I think we have someone not qualified to write sequels to adventure movies intended for broad appeal.

I give David Lynch mad props for declining George Lucas's offer. He knew his style was not fit for a beloved adventure franchise.

 

Yes...an internal time jump is done in so many movies...why the aversion to one in Star Wars? It's not like Rian has any problems of defying SW tradition.

And yes, Asian markets would have totally preferred Finn being an elite soldier than just some dude....in fact the "canon" material from around TFA alluded to him being one of the "best" storm troopers around.

Otherwise he is pretty much useless being that janitor from TFO who tried his hand at a battle mission and failed.

 

Don't forget Kathleen Kennedy standing right next to him with her hands gripped together rocking that ear to ear grin she always has while saying "yes, absolutely, we are here to do right by the fans, this film is for the fans and we are just so proud to deliver..."

......

 

I think this is the only time I’ve ever seen someone describe films as part of a “customer service industry” in a positive way. I’m personally thrilled that Kathleen is interested in directors who bring a personal vision to their films, rather than a focus-grouped fan created one. Even if that means some of those films being duds (as TLJ is for me). That approach also gave me some of my favorite SW films - RO and Solo.

 

^
Rogue One was NOT a product of one independent director’s personal vision.

The script was written by a hardcore fanboy, who brought other hardcore fanboys to geek about it and write some more details, after which KK brought an hardcore fanboy to direct it (Edwards), after which they brought a non-fan to fix the messed up parts (Tony Gilroy), and additionally, there are mentions of Christopher McQuarrie and Scott Burns also being involved in the scriptwrting.

That is also aside from the fact that this is the movie where the Story Group was most involved in. That is why you see so many references to Rebels (and TCW) there.

You know, it almost feels like the best way for SW LFL to go is to put hardcore fans and non-fan but competent directors in the same room and have them cook a movie for the audiences.

 

Yes, but there’s an auteur director with an incredibly strong and distinct visual aesthetic at the film’s core: Gareth Edwards. It looks and feels like an Edwards film. Too often, barring Waititi’s effort, the MCU films look and feel like...assembly line MCU films, complete with generic-looking CGI action set pieces in the third act. I’m personally glad KK isn’t interested in that approach, even if it means an occasional misfire (IMO) like TLJ.