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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I would certainly hope that the lead character in Black Panther would be black. If we can't even do that without raising some sort of controversy, then uhh....
     
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  2. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Sure. But Falcon hasn't got his own movie. Spider-Man was Peter Parker again, not Miles Morales (who Into The Spiderverse used really effectively). Black Widow didn't get her own movie, the white male heroes not named Hawkeye got about three apiece. I mean, the Steve Rogers Captain America could easily have been black, growing up in the 1920s/30s would have made him REALLY the little guy standing up to the world. There's no problem with Black Panther as a film or a character, just that it's taken this long to actually get there and have a black protagonist. It took TEN YEARS to have a non-white male lead. It's taken eleven to have a female lead. Apart from a bit of humorous homoeroticism there's still been next to no LGBTQ representation, That's poor on a diversity front.

    SW is more of an ensemble piece so by that measure, it's easy enough to feature a more diverse cast - and they have. Of the main three, Rey, Finn and Poe you have a female (Leia did it first there admittedly) and two men of non-white heritage. Which is a REALLY GOOD THING. But again, room for improvement. LGBTQ representation in the movies is next to nil. And while the leads have good diversity, they are surrounded by a pretty uniformly white cast, especially on the villain front.
     
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  3. Tusken Slayer

    Tusken Slayer Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 1999
    Is talking about sexuality of characters like Lando, Poe, and Luke okay for this thread?

    In light of a few of the actors (Hamill, Isaac) and a writer (Kasdan) openly talking about it or tweeting about it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  4. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    The reason Black Panther was discussed as the first black lead hero and Captain Marvel is discussed as the first female lead hero is because every other Marvel film, in a franchise with now over 20 films, is led by a white male. When Hollywood joins the rest of America in not assuming race or gender matter to viewing audiences, we won't have to talk about the "first" in the franchise because there won't be such long-standing patterns being altered by the appearance of non-white men leading films. And even when they finally do it, the youtube commentariat whines about so-called "forced diversity," which is really just "diversity." "How dare they hire an actor just for a diversity quota! I miss the days when they just hired white male actors for the... non-diversity quota, because they were convinced people wouldn't buy tickets to watch non-white people!"

    On the female front, DC did it better... I think. I don't follow DC closely and I haven't seen most of its movies. I never saw Suicide Squad, but it seemed like Margot Robbie was the star of the show, to the extent that there was a star of the show, and it never felt like it mattered that she was. From the outside looking in, it kind of seems like a R1, where it's a mainly male cast but the main character is female. Then Wonder Woman came out after only, what, two Superman movies? DC didn't need to promote her being the first anything because the DC movie universe was still just getting off the ground. Wonder Woman is a founding member of the Justice League who, unlike perpetual sidekick Black Widow, has a solo film.
     
  5. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Suicide Squad was leady by Margot Robbie (a woman) and Will Smith (a Black man) first and foremost, with Viola Davis (a Black woman) playing the "mastermind," and the main villain being female as well. Not to mention the team also consisted of another Black man, a Hispanic guy, and an Asian woman (and two White guys as well).

    Wonder Woman was the fourth film that they did, Aquaman (led by Jason Mamoa, was the sixth, and now they're doing a Birds of Prey (and all-female team) film with a diverse cast as well.
     
  6. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    The thing about DC and Warner Bros is, why did it take after making 40 years of Superman and Batman movies, to finally do their third most known superhero, the iconic Wonder Woman.

    But that's only when you don't look at the current DC movies in vacuum, but for how long they've been making movies overall.

    40 years is a long time. Especially when she was already a household name.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  7. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    This is true. In larger historical context outside of the current iteration of cinematic universes, Marvel produced a Blade trilogy and Elektra. DC did Catwoman. Before that it's a whole lotta Superman and Batman (with one Supergirl film somewhere in there I have never heard of) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_DC_Comics.

    It's too bad the X-Men movies have been so exclusively focused on the white male characters. There are so many wonderful mutant characters in Marvel comics, but the films have generally neglected to tell good stories about characters besides Wolverine, Professor X, and Magneto. Those characters are obviously awesome, but man, in terms of female heroes, Storm would have been a superb character to give a solo film to. She's a leader with among the most interesting superpowers (imo) and a great backstory.
     
  8. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Lol. How can you not know about the Supergirl film and her iconic picture in front of Popeyes Chicken?????


    Edit: I know Jennifer Lawrence is big, but the movies went straight from Wolverine-fest to Mystique-fest, leaving little room for others to shine.

    At least with Wolverine, it has precedent from the comics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
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  9. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    People make the distinction because the new head honchos at WB only came to power in 2013, and every since then they've at least been TRYING to diversify. So different people in charge, different standards.
     
  10. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Lol. My eyes glaze over at “Super” anything. That’s probably what happened anyway. Also don’t watch the current show.
     
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  11. Justin Gensel

    Justin Gensel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2018
    Given how badly Superman has been butchered in his last few outings, I hesitate to call anything from Man of Steel onwards 'Superman movies'. The way Snyder took a completely sincere idealist who did the right thing because he enjoyed doing so and turning him into a lame Batman knockoff bloated with wangst, a perpetual scowl and pretty much 0 in the way of actual dialogue besides grunting or howling is one of the biggest crimes of WB against DC Comics in the last 6 years. Reeve is still my gold standard for showing how to do Superman right: a square who can be kind of corny, but bursting with such charisma and genuine goodness and likability you can't help but smile when he shows up.
     
  12. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I call Snyder’s Ayn Randian approach to everything the Misery Touch. Everything he touches turns to miserable ****.
     
  13. Justin Gensel

    Justin Gensel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2018
    The Man with the Kryptonite Camera
     
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  14. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    An example of "diversity done right?" Into the Badlands. Post-apocalyptic wuxia. So in kung-fu series, you'd expect the show to be dominated by Asians, right? Nah.

    The Protagonist is an Asian man, his Love Interest is a black woman, his Apprentice is a brown man, the Sidekick's Crush is a white woman in a Love Triangle with a brown woman, the Big Bad is a white man, the Bigger Bad is a black man whose Adviser is a black woman, the Plucky Sidekick is a white man, the Morally Conflicted Conqueror is a white woman with a paraplegic Adviser and whose Adversary is an Asian woman, the Legendary Warrior is a black man, the Wise Old Master is a black woman...

    Nationalities of the actors include Pakistani/Irish, Hong Kong, British, Greek, Zimbabwean/Chinese, New Zealander/Hungarian, Gambian...And their ethnicities are completely incidental to the characters.

    EDIT spoiler-tagged for bandwidth
    Protagonist:
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    Love Interest:
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    Apprentice/Frenemy:
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    Sidekick's Crush/Morally Conflicted Conqueror's Main Enforcer:
    [​IMG]

    Her Love Interest:
    [​IMG]

    Big Bad:
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    Bigger Bad:
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    His advisor:
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    Plucky Sidekick/Comedy Relief:
    [​IMG]

    Morally Conflicted Conqueror:
    [​IMG]

    Her Main Advisor:
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    Her Adversary:
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    The Legendary Warrior
    [​IMG]

    The Wise Old Master:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  15. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    It's pretty hard to say that DC did it better than Marvel. Now they did an Outstanding job with Wonder Women and she has always been one of their top 3 heroes in Comics if anything I would say that Marvel struggled with regards to female heroes since the most popular were with another studio at the time Fox the X-men and FF ladies have always been at the for front of Marvel female heroes besides the Invisible Woman. Marvel has always struggled with their female characters with non comparing to the likes of Wonder Woman and the same can be argued with DC as well as none of their female characters have come close either. I think the lack of Diversity for both franchises has been due to them following their source material which in regards to Marvel as been a Strength in terms of characters and story but not very diverse and DC well let's not talk about DC's structure as a whole.

    I am very happy with the diversity that we are getting in Star Wars and I also do appreciate the build up to diversity in the MCU while picking and choosing some of the best elements from their Ultimate Universe like Nick Fury being black and Black Widow at the start. You also need to look at the financials of the whole thing Marvel kind of bet everything on a B list character called Iron Man distributed by Paramount of the company was toast and they fully brought under the Disney Umbrella until some time after the Avengers I am a person of color and I would rather them stick with the source material rather than shoehorn in some diversity just for the sake of it. I prefer story over representation. That being said it took them way to long do announce a Black Widow movie, I think part of the issue is what happened between Marvel and Scarlet Johanson on Age of Ultron and despite it taking nearly a decade I am very happy with what we got from Black Panther as a film and think it was worth the wait.

    I just want to see good characters and stories, black, gay, female, male I don't care just good characters without a preachy or in your face agenda which is something that I felt TLJ did very badly with a lot of it's female characters and I have to say after seeing what can be done in Wonder Woman with female characters while TFA had a promising start and TLJ was just a straight up disappointment as WW showcased just how important writing is to making characters proving a point and not being so obvious about what your trying to accomplish that it can take a viewer out of the movie. Also having Leia in a coma was just.....

    @AhsokaSolo The X-men do have the best female heroes of the Marvel Universe looking forward to what their inclusion in the MCU is going to look like!
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  16. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    #TeamWidow
     
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  17. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    The moment they showed the relationship between Hawkeye and Widow I wanted there to be a Marvel movie called Budapest starring Scarlett Johanson and co-starring Jeremy Renner because I think that would have been amazing.

    Edit.... Whopps thought you were talking about Black Widow my bad
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  18. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I totally agree with you about a lot but especially about X-Men. The main reason I'm so excited for the Fox merger is I really want the MCU to do Storm justice. Obviously there are a lot of great female X-Men but Storm has always been my favorite. Her power is just too cool. Fox wasting her is one of my biggest gripes with them. She's a natural leader, not background filler.

    The loss of X-Men and FF certainly made Marvel's job harder when it came to female heroes. Honestly if the source material is lacking, I don't mind them making alterations. Captain Marvel as she exists in the film was arguably shoehorned into the comics well after the MCU was underway and I'm cool with that. Ms. Marvel Carol was not interesting to me and frankly Marvel has just not had much luck with solo female characters. But that to me doesn't mean there shouldn't be any in the films. Clearly there's a market for it. I ridiculously loved CM and I can't wait to own it so I can rewatch it whenever I want. So, I'm grateful she's been shoehorned in. BL's CM is, to me, the femshep Mass Effect movie I never thought I'd get. And happily, she's exactly how I play my femshep - mostly paragon, but with pronounced moments of renegade.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  19. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    I really can't wait to see what Marvel is going to bring to the screen as I think a lot of their gaps have just been shored up. I agree that the lack of female solo characters doesn't mean their shouldn't be any in films and I am happy to see Captain Marvel in the MCU don't think Ms. Marvel would have done well. The other issues I think regarding female characters have all been behind the scenes and I do think that Guardians also paved the way to the cosmic section of the MCU which will help as well. I still hope we see the Shi'Ar Empire and a real Dark Phoenix Saga one day.

    I would say that Captain Marvel's biggest issue just like TLJ (gotta keep it on topic) Is the script and the structure which didn't do it any favors and created a lot of head scratching moments but overall it was a worthy and diverse edition to the MCU where as TLJ well it was diverse that's all I will say about that.
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m going to bring this over from the ST Criticism thread and the discussion there:

    Yes. This, exactly.

    Not only would Lucas have had a female lead in the ST regardless of any social pressures—my understanding is that was the plan. And he put Leia in the OT and took heat for her lack of traditional-female-character qualities. ‘Why wasn’t she nicer? Sweeter? More grateful?’

    If J.J. Abrams did not know any female Star Wars fans—maybe he should have come to a Celebration. Or joined this site or the original starwars.com site. Or seen who was following Star Wars feeds on social media.

    The fact that lots of females love Star Wars means that Star Wars does not need to become “more geared towards females” with the offensive-stereotype implications that go along with that statement.

    “Oh, you don’t count as a female fan, you don’t like Nicholas Sparks novels/other stereotype of some material that ‘all’ women allegedly like.” There’s the offense.

    “Why change anything about Star Wars when it comes to the female fan if they already like the product?” is exactly the point. Star Wars has had broad cross-generational appeal without changing it to appeal to some horrific stereotype of “what women like.” There are Baby Boomer women, Gen-X women (my generation), millennial women and post-millennial girls who like Star Wars. Maybe ask us what we like about it, and then you’ll see that there is no need to change the formula, especially when changing the formula negates an aspect that we liked, such as replacing badass women characters with men-fixers, or giving badass women characters gratuitous acts of violence against men to “prove” that they are badass, when that was never necessary before.

    Nothing wrong with bringing new fans into the fold. That has been happening. One way it has been happening is through those of us who grew up on Star Wars introducing it to our children and children that we know. Another way is through the cartoons that appeal to kids but still feel like Star Wars.

    The idea that the old fans need to be sacrificed for a formula change to bring in new ones is ridiculous.
     
  21. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I started here in June 1999 and I never had the impression that women fans were rare. Were they a mathematical minority? Sure, they were less than 50%. But I never got any idea that they were less than maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 4. I would be prepared to be hit with a cold hard fact that it might nowadays be more like 1 in 6, but it just never felt that way back then. There were lots of women in the fan fic area, community area, role play threads. I don't remember many clustering in the political analysis threads... But everywhere else...

    Abrams had at least 15 years to familiarize himself with the client base, so as to make some informed choices. Obviously he had 40, as well. Something of a doth protest too much emanates from that claim of his.
     
  22. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I have 3 sisters. All Star Wars fans like me. I grew up outnumbered by female Star Wars fans.
     
  23. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    :eek: I reject such counter narrative views.

    JJ: Clearly, they were the only female SW fans.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    *waves at JJ*

    JJ: You like sports. You are clearly a dude.
     
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  25. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Notre Dame basketball says hello JJ