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ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Please Point and Laugh star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    We all have our own unique experiences. I’m gay too. But I’m not disabled. I can’t lay claim to understanding your experience better than you. Likewise, you don’t know what it’s like to be black in America, so don’t act like you do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  2. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Now please become intersectional.
     
  3. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    The term “white privilege” refers to the status of white relative to the status of blacks. It does not mean that all white people lead charmed lives. There are different kinds of privilege, and discussing and grappling with one kind does not mean that other kinds don’t exist.
     
  4. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Okay.
    I'm gone.
     
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It isn't a personal insult. It is a sensitive subject. I sympathise with your own problems, but you can't make blanket statements with something like this.
     
  6. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Maybe, but as someone who has repeatedly had my concerns sneered at, and I'm not talking about here, I'm starting to take it personally.
    People who are victimised like me don't get protest marches.

    I think it's best for me to leave this thread.
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    This.

    White privilege does not mean white people never have hard lives.

    It means their skin color isn’t making their lives harder.

    And we should be able to talk about systematic racism against Black and Brown people without white people disrupting the discussion and making it all about them. But that disruption happens all the time and has for decades.

    Bringing this back to entertainment and specifically Star Wars, this is also why it’s important that Black and Brown people have the opportunity to see themselves in franchises that may have at one time, correctly or incorrectly, not been considered geared specifically towards them—and why they should be able to see themselves portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner.

    More generally speaking, and this is what I deal with in my field—children’s books need to portray Black and Brown people in stories that do not involve slavery or the Civil Rights Movement.
     
  8. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think all people get frustrated when they do not feel heard. It is important to listen all around. I'm pretty sure that was his only point.
     
    sian1965 likes this.
  9. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    An excellent way of putting.

    I am disabled, too, and I have lived a less than charmed life impacted by poverty, paternal neglect and a general lack of understanding about my disabilities and I agree that my race affords me a special kind of privilege. The existence of this privilege does not mean that I am not a victim of the normalized ableism that also permeates society (which caused me to not develop a shred of self-worth until I was twenty-six)

    My grandfather was an English immigrant who couldn't get into the country, initially, despite being married to a native and he had to work his way up. All the same, he benefited from white privilege. For example, it took him over three decades to learn to speak the language without blending in English words yet he was never viewed as lazy for struggling. It was simply treated as something he had difficulty with and at worst, it was viewed as a funny quirk of his. His children, one of whom was born in England and immigrated as a child, were also never treated as second-generation immigrants - they were just citizens.

    White privilege is the acknowledgement and condemnation of systemic racism; it is not the condemnation of white people nor a migitation or elimination of the individual white person's struggles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sure, and ableism and homophobia are both problematic. But this discussion started out with an equating of previously white characters being played by Black and Brown actors, and previously Black and Brown characters being played by white actors. Several of us made the point that both situations are not equal due to systematic racism, and the regular whataboutism points started, versions of the points that regularly come up in a discussion about systematic racism. For decades, if not centuries, there have been attempts to deflect and distract discussions about systematic racism back to a focus on how white people also have problems.
     
  11. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    And will continue to do so. White people always make it about themselves. Look at these protests. Who is the star? Why, upper class white teenagers LARPing as revolutionaries, of course. And everyone's favorite white celebrities who denounce their white privilege from their mansions protected by private police. Hey, I want to denounce my white privilege from the Olympic size private pool. Well, I would if I had any but no cigar and no denouncing, sorry.

    Remember this one? It went something like, if you don't agree with BLM, YOU SHOULD NOT BOTHER TO WATCH MY MOVIES. Within hours, the celeb was trending with about 300-400K where 50% was "but nobody watches his movies anyway" and other 50% was "who?".So 300-400K of tweets and retweets NOT about BLM. Bravo Hollywood. [face_tee_hee]

    Or that hostage video-like "I Take Responsibility" video. Bunch of white celebs made a gloomy B&W (symbolism!) video in support of protests and against systematic racism that is all about them. I this. I that. I...I...I. White people especially celebrities cannot help it. They'll always make it all about them. They'll always hijack causes that are not about them (also see kente wearing white Democrats who became bigger stars for that comedy gold than whatever police reform they penned... everyone remembers Pelosi in kente, no one remembers the reform draft). [face_rofl]

    So yes, this is not going away because you can't change habits overnight and attitudes at all. Expect more eager white industry people hijacking the spotlight no matter what the cause is because white people cannot suppress the urge to save something/someone whether it needs saving or not. They just straight up save you and you just have to deal with that all the credit and clicks will go to them. It's a fact of life.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're saying that because you can't change habits overnight, this is not going away. Ever. Period. End of story.

    I'd just like to say that if everyone was that pessimistic, you would be right...

    ...but fortunately, far from everyone is.
    Change happens. Not overnight and not by itself, but as quickly as it can and because people believe in and work toward it.
    Positive forces bring about positive change. That's a fact. To argue against that is unrealistic.

    Not to mention counterproductive.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’ll let Black and Brown people who are actually involved in the movement (as opposed to anyone who mocks it, and mocks any effort towards racial justice, every possible chance) decide whether white celebrities and white teenagers are “hijacking the spotlight” from the Black Lives Matter movement.
     
  14. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    And I can draw my own conclusions just fine. Not to mention that I don't have a movement that needs celebrity/white rich kids donations so that bias is removed. Nothing wrong with going easy on whoever opens the purse. It's just that their view and my view will be different. And my view isn't a lonely one either otherwise I wouldn't bring it up.

    @Lulu Mars

    Which is why people get cancelled for stupid stuff they did or said ages ago. Nah they cannot change, off with their heads. Right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
    sian1965 likes this.
  15. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Life isn't a scale. Nothing we do in the present, on our own, changes the past.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    No, but what we do now can shed the light on past behavior that it deserves, as opposed to pretending that it actually wasn’t that bad, as well as ensuring that things change moving forward.
     
  17. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2015
    I glad people from all over the world are involved and engaging in any way they are able to. I'd much rather have people [insert any human] aware and engaged than not.

    As for cancelling people for stuff they've said in the past, I'm not really for that unless they haven't changed. Take Ralph Northam's blackface incident. He's owned it and now he's affecting change in VA in ways he probably never would have. Where you're headed because of where you've been is more important.

    And I thank the people here doing what they can where they can.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  18. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Please Point and Laugh star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    For the record, I believe your concerns deserve hearing, validation, and action. My own mother is disabled and has had her life radically impacted as a result. I would love to hear more about your experiences. Feel free to PM me anytime.
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    That’s my take on “cancel culture” as well. Nobody should be “cancelled” if they own their behavior and apologize for it. But a lot of people who complain about it are those who would prefer that the awful behavior continue to be as acceptable as it was years ago.

    Bringing this back to filmmaking in general and Star Wars specifically, it’s the difference between recognizing that a well-made and well-acclaimed film had problematic aspects that were not considered problematic in the past (the Han and Leia kiss on the Falcon in ESB) and thinking that it’s acceptable to put such aspects in a film made today, when we know better and can do better, and then accusing people of being “sjw’s who just don’t understand classic film” if they speak out.
     
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    You know that isn’t what I meant so I don’t know why you commented.
     
  21. Triad Moons

    Triad Moons Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    I think the worst part about that is how corporations use the "brownie points" thing to keep diverse films or films about a specific experience from reaching the mainstream. Julia Hart's Fast Color wasn't marketed because gatekeepers decided there was no audience for the film (a film about a family of Black women with superpowers), but assured Hart they were eager to support diverse films. I think a similar situation happened with films like Captive State and KIN, budget sci-fi films with Black leads that weren't promoted until they were almost out in theaters.
     
  22. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    The thing with ESB is that Falcon kiss is problematic from current climate's POV and it wasn't from late 70s early 80s one. Everything is cyclical so who's to say that what isn't considered problematic now won't be problematic 40 years from now? Therefore, it's fine to acknowledge that this era views old values differently but we are getting too many "why film-makers, writers, etc weren't woke back then and why didn't they see the problem?" which is fishing for a reason to be outraged.

    Yeah what @Triad Moons says happens a lot. They make content and then drop the ball by not promoting it. As if they made it just so they could say we made it what do you want?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  23. godisawesome

    godisawesome Retired Mod of the Sequel Campaign star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I think I would say that Rogue One is evidence for how more diversification, even just in casting, can lead to having an “overqualified” cast - meaning that supporting characters may end up so well acted that it’s obvious they could have been used more... which isn’t really a bad thing.

    And that’s one of the aspects of *genuine* diversity that could end up being lost in the shuffle, and onl of the reasons why “tokenism” is a major issue both in terms of morality and in terms of art quality: sheer mathematics argues that underrepresented races (and genders in certain roles) contain a proportionate-to-their-population level of potential genius artists which the overall population may never be aware of because of systemic racism and de-jure prejudice in entertainment.

    Gabriel Iglesias had a part of his routine that pointed out how being classified as a “Latino comedian” was cutting him off from certain audiences - and he’s widely acknowledged as one of the most demographic breaking comedians of his generation. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in part because he was so good he proved that the sport would see greater competition by his inclusion and integration.

    Beyond moral concerns (which are strong enough there really shouldn’t be a debate beyond it), prejudice and systemic bias hold things back - I mean, some NFL team in the next year is going to regret not grabbing either Eric Bieniemy from the Chiefs or Robert Saleh from the 49ers while both those teams murder their way through the regular season.... just like I’m sure someone at LFL is going to realize they wasted a bunch of talent named Boyega as time went on in the ST.
     
  24. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Another thing to think about, when they cast actors from foreign countries, is that what Hollywood may think is progressive (Donnie Yen in a supporting SW role) may not be progressive to those countries (Donnie Yen is a leading man superstar so supporting role is a token and a downgrade). Too many times American film-makers tap themselves on the back for something that makes people in other part of the world cringe. And since big movies are made for global market, cultural sensitivity should be extended beyond American minority sensitivity. For American Chinese, Donnie in SW may be a big deal but in such a third banana role it is not in his native China that views him as the leading man. Now I understand that Amero-centric view will prevail cause we are talking about American movies. But since big budget ones need foreign markets, and often place the story there and/or use local stars to boost boxoffice with their fans, it's inevitable to start thinking in terms if those markets and their stars are honored by such practice or downgraded and tokenized.
     
  25. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Where the hell did that come from?

    I subscribe to what @afrojedi and @anakinfansince1983 said about "cancel culture".
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020