ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Yeah well, they don't have nearly as much power as they think they do, and their just discrediting themselves in the eyes of the world in the long run with their stupidity.

I never said anything of the sort regarding the bolded. But on the flip side when you stand your ground and take them to task you take away whatever imaginary power idiots like that feel like they have.

We'll of course, but at the same time surely you would'nt expect them to rethink their opinions or change their minds by taking your opinion into account, would you?

I don't see why they would'nt.

I'm sure other peaple could give you reasons to explain that, but I'm not going to becuase I don't agree with the premise that the film thinks that his feelings are more importent then anyone elses.

That's a matter of personal taste, so while I might feelt Johnson took the more interesting choice you may feel differently. But since you asked it's becuase I liked the chemistry between Finn and Rose/Boyaga and Tran better then that between Finn and Rey/Boyaga and Ridley, and I thought the dymanic between Kylo and Rey was more worth the films time then re-hashing things between her and Finn. Not only that, but I really enjoyed seeing Finn get a chance to step out of Rey's shadow, so to speak, as I felt he was more of a glorified sidekick in TFA.

Well, I can't say your wrong. But speaking for myself I look at a movies quality first before I look at the gender and ethnicities of it's stars, and I don't need every film to send some sort of message - sometimes I just want to have fun and escape the real world, were those problems are all too present and unavoidable; surely that's not too much to ask?

Well, the only time I've brought up pandering is in a hypothetical sense regarding non-organic tokenism, which IMO does the exact opposite of leveling the playing field, does'nt do much - if anything - to solve the problems we are discussing and does'nt respect the audience, irregardless of their race, gender or sexual orentation.

 

No harm, no foul. It was mainly me flexing needlessly. l grew up with some of these, so that's why I had thoughts on them. But Catwoman and Elektra's problems aren't in not knowing how to write women.

 

Why is that naive?

Believe it or not - and I know it can be easy to forget when Donald Trump is president and you just need to turn on the news to see peaple arguing in defense of Confederate statues erected during the civil rights era - most peaple are not racists and don't really give two figs about interacial marriage.

You call me naive, but I could just as easily call you paranoid

Well, I'm a fan of Rey and I think Kylo is believably sympathetic, and while I do think it would be interesting to have Finn have done Stormtrooper revolt thing, I don't think the fact that he did'nt is damaging to his character - I mean, it was never a thing that was set up anyway, just (like a lot of things) a fan theory that took on a life of its own and peaple decided to throw a fit when they did'nt get.

Funny, I can defend the movie just fine and I think I'm a pretty ethical person

And yeah, a lot of the defenses are personal subjective opinions - that's the way opinions work; I can say the same thing about you and the other peaple who attack the film - you doing that becuase of your own personal, subjective opinions as well, are'nt you?

My cousin is both a young woman woman and half-black and she's a Star Wars fan becuase of the ST, so clearly their not all jumping ship becuase it's such a "indefensibly" racist and sexist film.

I'm reasonably sure I have seen a movie about Bass Reeves. I don't recall it being a good movie, but I do belive I saw one.

And that is a very specific take on King Arthur, and not one I can ever recall seeing.

And to me it's a film that's bold, written by a very clever and imagintive man, decided to be unpredictable when fans demanded predictability and is'nt in the least bit sexist or racist.

So which of us is right, and which is wrong? I'd argue "both of us, but also neither of us."

 

Voter suppression?

Maybe Johnson just did'nt see stereotypes were you did? And as such he did'nt see anything to avoid?

After all, if I don't see stereotypes were you do, is it so unbelivable that he would'nt as well?

I doubt many racists and sexist in political office care much about Hollywood, considering that many of them overlap with a far-right crowd that overwelming considers Hollywood to be controlled by a leftist conspiracy.

Well, suffice to say we don't want him to step out of her shadow for the same reasons, as I defiantly don't share that view; Rey and Finn's freindship is one of my favorite parts of the film, and while I was super glad to see Finn get to strech his legs in TLJ, I was also happy to see them get to team up agian in TROS.

Well, I can see how it would be hard for you to escape it if you see "antiquated dynamics" and "examples of privilege" but I don't see those things. I see a fun, clever sci-fi film that lets me escape the real world for a few hours like I used to when I would watch the OT as a little kid - now maybe some peaple can't find escapism in the film, and I'm sorry for them, but I can just fine, so the film serves its purpose.

Cool?

I'm just saying I don't need films to send a message. That's not something I look for in my general moviegoing experience (I usually wait for the movies with the heavy political messages to come out, since I tend to go to the theater to have fun, not think deeply).

I think you might have reading to much into ANH, but if that's the message the film imparted on you then more power to you, I'm sure their are plenty of peaple who found TFA, TLJ and TROS equally as empowering for different reasons (though I'd hardly consider Obi-Wan to be temperamental or the Rebels in ANH to be ethnicity diverse).

 

Donald Trump is a well know bigot and misogynist. Him being elected POTUS is reflective of a lot of issues in the US (which aren't unique to the US)... and those issues are reflected in the media and entertainment business i.e. it's run by predominately white, middle class men, whom are out to, if not protect their interests, have their interests reflected back at them.

 

Lol I think @anakinfansince1983 was talking about Rogue One. That is a hilarious description of ANH.

 

Rey and Poe would be traditional in the sense that you have a roguish guy and a feisty but prudish girl in the manner of Han and Leia (LFL really tried their damnest to make Poe the new Han so...). Which is why this ship was popular with some old-school SW fans such as Collider set, and I imagine CT is one of those guys. And given that ST wanted to evoke OT to the point of being a soft reboot, such romance wouldn't be out of place. That said, JJ and Rian, directors who ended up directing ST movies, had other plans which boiled down to "what if Obi Wan was a girl and Anakin fell in love with her (and vice versa)". Good idea with lots of execution hickups like many good ideas. But good idea nonetheless.

 

Rey is not a supporting character and being a female Obi Wan is simply to say that they used a Prequel reference here. Which is true that they referenced Prequels in Kylo case and Rey's relationship with him. I'd say that Force bond is really Padme's Ruminations on steroids. So maybe I should have said that Rey is if Padme was a Jedi and main POV character.

Spoiler

They seem to sense each other across the city, almost as if they can see each other. In TLJ and TROS, Rey and Kylo can sense, see and touch each other across the galaxy and even pass objects between each other. This first Force Bond is very much staged like Padme's Ruminations:

 

They are in the government and law enforcement. People gets killed by bigots with minimal to no justice, they gets no access to jobs, housing and higher education because of systemic racism established and maintained by bigots for generations. The rest of the world is immune.

 

Any which way the characters were arranged there would still be people finding something to complain or be offended by. That's just the age we live in, unfortunately.

 

I meant *isn't* immune.

 

I did'nt vote for him, I don't care what he thinks, he's an idiot who only "won" by a technicality (and arrogance/stupidity on the part of both the democrats and some of their voters), the majority of the country hates him and he's as embattled as the western front.

Cheeto Benito does'nt repersent the majority of the opinions of the peaple in my country, believe you me.

And their slowly getting weeded away by pushback from the 99 percent of the world who don't put up with their stupity, all the while making their failings blatently obvious to the general public and discrediting themselves while doing so.

I don't care about the opinions of the bigots holding on to the last scraps of their "power." I care about the good peaple in goverment and law enforcement, and I don't for a second think they repersent the minority of those two groups.

I thought you were talking about ANH, since you mentioned destroying the Death Star and someone specific getting killed by Vader.

Still, the point stands. If that's the message you took away from R1, more power to you. That's not the message I took away from it, though.

I don't see what that has to do with my point that most peaple don't have any issue with interacial marriage.

That's fine, and you could be right regarding Johnson. I don't know the man, however, so I'm not comfortable making assumptions regarding his views - intentional or otherwise - regarding race and gender politics. That's not my place.

They "care" in the sense that they complain. Hollywood does'nt care what they think, hence why they keep making movies with a progressive agenda that conflicts directly with their narrow one.

I don't agree. I think their friendship is one of the best and most relatable in the francise.

Le Morte d'Arthur was published in the freaking 15th Century, lol. I don't really think it should be suprising that it does'nt cast woman in an overall positive light.

Err...Obi-Wan's not a supporting character in the PT.

 

I don't think his point was disingenuous at all.

For instance, you say offense is mostly the product of execution and say their are ways to make Rey "not sexist" but the fact that she is dipicted in a sexist way is itself an opinion, so it defiantly seems like offense in this case is the product of personal taste, rather then execution.

And there are plenty of stories that take different spins on the narrative that make the woman less "prosaic" (though I don't really understand the critism and I think it's a highly subjective issue in this case); BBC's Merlin, for instance, were Morgana is dipicted in a largly sympathtic light and Guinevere is both A) black and B) ends up being sole ruler of Camelot at the end. Also the 2004 King Arthur film, were Guinevere is dipicted as a warrior-woman who fights alongside the men (and I think there's even an anime were King Arthur himself is a girl, but I'm not super into Anime outside of a few specific shows so I can't say if I'm dreaming things up or not or even if it's a good dipiction of the character).

No, Anakin is the central protagonist, but he is just one of four main characters (the others being Obi-Wan, Padme and, in TPM, Qui-Gon).

Just like how the main characters in the OT are Luke, Han, Leia, Vader (and Lando in ROTJ) and those in the ST are Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo (and Rose in TLJ). Star Wars has always been built around the ensamble.

 

Clearly Anakin, Luke and Rey are the respective lead, or central, protagonists of their respective trilogies. All other characters are, to various degrees, supporting characters, even if Leia, Finn, Padme etc. are significant (or central) characters in their own right. It's semantics really.

 

It's possible to have more then one main character, even if their is still a central main character. So while yes, Anakin, Luke and Rey are the central protagonists, their not the leads - or rather, their not the sole leads; agian, these are ensamble films.

The only Star Wars film that can really be argued to have a single main character is Solo, but even then that's iffy.

 

Before she is given a reason to feel vengeful to Merlin but the writers instead turn her into a muhaha-villain who now feels nothing anymore to people she previously deeply loved and who did nothing to her starting with Season 3? I have a lot of fondness for that show but they really, really ultimately bungled Morgana`s turn. The miniseries "Mists of Avalon" is one with a truly sympathetic portrayal of Morgana and a more well-rounded depiction of female characters in Arthurian lore.

 

I mean, I kinda saw it coming that she'd eventually slip so far she'd just become regular old evil, so I was'nt really suprised by that, but I can at least agree that it all happened a bit to fast.

I was more just to trying to point out that their are in fact versions of Arthurian myth that show the female characters in a more complex/positive/well-rounded light then how their showing in the classical texts. I've never heard of Mist of Avalon so I could'nt comment on that.

 

No, offense is largely in the eye of the beholder.

You found much of the st offensive. That's fair. That is also your own personal opinion.

 

I've never seen the Mist of Avalon series but I'm not so... fond of the book since I can't divorce the text from its creator Marion Zimmer Bradley due to how it feels like her pedophilia is on display throughout it.