ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Does anyone outside of Hux, Kylo, and possibly the Knights of Ren even know he's an alien?


Jedi Jessy The take they went with made Han cooler, but damn if it didn't give off some unfortunate undertones.

 

I don't know what the rest of the order thinks or knows about him. Not enough info.

 

The Legends canon played up the Empire being racist, xenophobic, and misogynistic a lot. But ever since Disney took over, they've been toning that down significantly. The racist/misogynistic stuff has been almost totally removed since we've seen repeated examples of high-ranking Imperials who are women/POC/WOC/Etc. The xenophobia is still there to a degree, but even that's been toned down somewhat. We've also seen repeated instances of the Empire being willing to employ or work with non-humans if it suits their goals. Thrawn and the Inquisitors (who ALL seem to be non-human) come to mind right away.

Honestly I'm fine with it because not only does it makes things more interesting, but I feel like the Legends thing was more about writers feeling the need to provide an explanation for why the OT Imperials tended to be all older White guys after the fact. When the real reasons are probably that it was more logistical feasible to do it that way from a time/budget perspective, and it provided and easy yet effective visual/stylistic contrast between the Empire and the Rebels.

As for the FO, I don't think that we know near-enough about their deeper political and social beliefs to make a firm judgment. All we know is that their pseudo-fascists and that they kind of want to bring back certain aspects of the Empire. But as for their deeper beliefs, they weren't really delved into that much. Also we see that they have women/POC among their ranks, and their leader seems to be an alien, so there's that.

As for Piett in ESB, I always (even as a kid), took it as him being aghast that Vader was using bounty hunters at all. The fact that they were aliens wasn't his concerned. And his dialogue seems to back that take on it up:

Piett: "Bounty Hunters, we don't need their scum."

He points to their profession, not their species/race as what he doesn't like.

 

I think the Empire has always been xenophobic (Anti alien). Only the style (clothing, colors, perhaps military structure, and pro humaness) are Nazi like. The OT took place back in the 70s so having an all white cast there doesn't mean much imo.

Rae and Ciena proves that the Empire itself was not all white. Just as Fin proves that the FO is not all white. So I see nothing wrong in making some of the bad guys poc too. I would love to see a Rae Sloane and Ciena type characters brought to life on the big screen. Or see the characters themselves make an appearance in a SW movie.

 

There's also background FO personal who are POC besides Finn (one of whom is the star of a show that I like on the SyFy channel, so seeing her cameo in TFA made me smirk).

Also in the Lando comic, Lando is having an affair/relationship with a female Moff who is also a WOC.

 

I think it's a little of both honestly. It was the 70s, so all white men isn't too much of a surprise, but when more diverse casting practices occurred they were for the rebellion. I don't see that as a coincidence.

I acknowledge that they have officially retconned much of the Legends Empire's ideology (I don't think there ever was anything on race beyond casting,) but I don't really see it as necessary and it hasn't really been replaced with anything. In the new material the Empire and the FO's look seems to be due to nostalgia instead of world building.

 

I think the lack of diversity in the Empire had more to do with:
1. Casting all British officers gave them a unifying theme for organization. At the time, the film was probably geared more toward an American audience. With that in mind, a British citizen could probably spot any dialect and accent differences, whereas the American audience could not (simply not being exposed to it on a daily basis).
2. It was hard to make a convincing main bad guy in an alien outfit/makeup/costume without simply being a prop. Even Vader obviously had challenges in that he could never move with the swiftness of a Maul (an alien villain of the future Empire). It probably was nothing more than budget constraints. ESB corrected this with the bounty hunters which allowed the alien bad guy, but didn't create continuity problems with why they were nowhere to be seen in ANH. They were, as established by Greedo. A bounty hunter.
3. Despite all the modern day nonsense about misogyny in the movies themselves, Leia was a very strong character. And there were other strong women in the Alliance. Mon Mothma of course, but even the ion cannon officer on Hoth was a woman. Perhaps they felt casting a strong female lead as a villain would diminish Leia. Even the TFA's strong female lead, Phasma, had nothing on Leia. Phasma was basically set up as the Stormtrooper Den Mother if you are honest about the role she actually played.

Rogue One might have also broken the alien conundrum with the death troopers. They struck me as not human.

 

So...you judge the people of today by the sins if their fathers? Or all white men are boogy men cuz some are but all poc of color are heroes of the most outstanding virtue cuz some are? Or...and here is a dangerous thought...white people should be treated as less equal today cuz in the past white societies treated others badly?
Now...you did not say those things no more than anybody said the things you put in quotes in your posts. Please do not wave shinny high horses in order to distract from the point being argued here.

None of which you written argues a point against: there is nothing wrong or malign for any person on this earth to have a personal preference to what they like or find attractive, and no one has any moral, hystorical, sociological, politically (in)correct supremacistic right imposed by others who see themselves as a moral vertical of today's society to tell them otherwise....unless we talk about goats...or stuff like that...
I prefer white men. Tall dark and handsome, to be exact. I prefer seeing them as leads in movies if it is supported by the story, ofc...i also like better dark haired female actresses.... That does not make me a white supremacist or a racist. Makes me a free person that has the same liberty to chose to enjoy what she prefers the same way all other people are free to choose today.

Exactly my point!!! Thank you wise Papa Darth Smurf


Hazevamp
Agreed that is what i argue. Equality.

Admiral_Wyvern
Nazis are not the boogy man of today's world. They lack organization, military strength, government support and institutional/legislative framework to be so. They always are a potential threat but today there are other organisations that qualify better.
And you are keep missing my point. I do not defend Nazis nor I ever will defend white rasistic supremacists. Like I will not defend any rasistic supremacists of any color. People are either good or bad. That doesn't depend much on their ethnicity...certainly the religion and political government in which they are born and raised can have an influence...but the ultimate choice of every individual what he/she will be rests on the thing called human nature...which is independent of color of your skin. I just wish for fair representation of all that in a thread where we discuss diversity and equality. I don't think that is the case. And I think, principlewise it is wrong.

Jedi Jessy
What do you mean the kiss is not consentual?
Women saying no while meaning yes is not a myth (in certain occasions i must add before i am being accused of anti feminism as well...well...that i kinda am cuz i am egalitarian, so ). Leia is most certainly willing participant here and that was obvious based on her behaviour not only in this scene but all other scenes they have together prior to this. Her playing hard to get and him being a scoundrel is the basis of their on screen dynamics and chemistry. I love every second of it. It is playfull, interesting and sexy as hell and I prefer that kind of love story over boring and safe anyday. IMO, anyway.

 

The funny thing is, if you go back and look at the OT, aliens don't start showing up in any kind of real numbers/notable roles until ROTJ. Same with adding a few more women and POC in there as well. In both ANH and ESB, the Rebellion (or at least the parts of it that we actually see onscreen) is almost totally human-centric. And not just human-centric, White male human-centric.

 

I like Han/Leia but I never approve some scenes in ESB (I prefer how they are in ROTJ, even their little flirt in ANH last scene). Anakin/Padme had some problems too ("Please don't look at me like that." "Why not?" "Because it makes me feel uncomfortable." "Sorry my lady.") I prefer when Anakin talks about sand lol

 

I personally had no issues with Han and Leia and their kiss. They were clearly bantering and both were clearly interested in pursuing each other. Now Anakin and Padme was just weird. Mainly because the actor's chemistry was in the toilet and the dialogue was horrible. I understood what Lucas was trying to do with the couple and why they were behaving the way they were but it translated horribly on screen.

As for "rape culture" I like to post a quote from RAINN:
"In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime."

I believe rape culture exists but it is outside the U.S and a vast majority of the west. Heck I can even say it doesn't exist in some other parts in the world. I remember reading a story about a man who raped a little girls in India. And a crowd of people broke into his cell, dragged him out into the streets, beat him, and murdered him.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that statements like, "I prefer white males as leads" really don't need to be normalized. Can we call a spade a spade, or will that get me banned?

 

K I'll say then. If someone finds themself unable to relate to non-white male leads, the solution there is to challenge oneself by getting out of your comfort zone and learning to relate to humanity in people that don't look like you or that possess that one cookie cutter look you like to look at. The solution is definitely not to expect the rest of us to think it's okay or normal to coddle your lack of comfort with non-white people.

Also, that's a hella racist statement.

 

50 shades of grey is veeeery popular in USA, so I think "rape culture" exists there too

 

And Padme was great too... except when she prefer to die because of Anakin (I have a headcanon that she had depression, but in the canon...)

 

50 Shades is about a woman who enjoys the type of relationship she is having. How is that remotely rape or rape culture? So if a woman enjoys having her rear end smacked. It's rape culture and not her just being horny and wanting that type of sex play? Does that make her a victim even when she consents?

 

I haven't read this thread in a while. Is that something people are saying here?

 

Heck even actually people who are into actual BDSM HATE those books/that film for misrepresenting what that lifestyle is ACTUALLY like and entails. And making them all look bad in the process.

Frankly, the book/film is a disturbing horror story, that doesn't know that it's a disturbing horror story.

 

This is an argument that they could do differently, not an argument that they need to.

What if someone wants to portray white supremacists though? You seem to be saying that they should not be portrayed at all, or at least that they should be multiracial? An ideology that promotes one race at the expense of others will draw support primarily from the race it advances. It would be wrong to say everyone in that race supported that ideology, but refusing to portray the demographics of that ideology as they are in reality serves no point whatsoever.

 

Yes BDSM folks hate it, I've never read it nor watched the films so I can't say what happens except butt smacking from excerpts read by ppl making fun of it. However, millions of women read it and enjoyed it and watched the movies and supported it enough for a sequel to be made. They obviously loved it enough to make it more read than the Bible. This is not rape nor rape culture. Just women enjoying something they like and it seems like the woman in the story enjoys it enough for a sequel to be made. IMO, it's just mountains being made out of molehills and turning women into default victims when they are not. Every adult, who doesn't suffer from mental issues, can understand the difference between reality and fiction.

Also, there are plenty of women who love confident, in control, and dominate men (see the romance fiction genre). There is nothing wrong with that, it doesn't mean they condone rape or abuse. IMO, I think 50 shades simply appeals to that nature and nothing more. A mere fantasy **** fest if anything.

Note: I'll stop talking about this topic, because it has nothing to do with SW and diversity and the mods might get ticked off....lol!

 

Unfortunately I read the first book and

Spoiler

There is a moment when he invades the house where she is and rapes her, she cries right after. There are moments when she receives emails from him telling her do not to run away because he will find her. My friend read the last book and said that the "romantic" moment is when he says to her "you finally is totally mine" ~something like it~ because they got married