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ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    This is not my normal area and I'll defer to the New Films mods if they do not want this topic discussed, but I think it can be relevant based on what we want to see in Star Wars as well as modern depictions of women characters, which relates to diversity.

    And "it's not sexist because some women liked it" is not a valid argument. That would be akin to saying that feminist causes are not valid because some women do not support them and believe that they belong in traditional submissive roles.

    I know women who thought Grey was hot and the sex scenes were hot and I do not think these women condone rape or abuse, but that does not change the fact that the story itself normalizes it and any similar story that could appear in the Star Wars genre would normalize it.

    The romance genre depicting dominant men and submissive women is problematic in and of itself; Star Wars is NOT that genre, hence why some of us have remained fans for decades while criticizing the aspects that do reflect that genre (the complete character assassination of Padme in ROTS and Ventress in Dark Disciple).

    And people who do not enjoy the romance genre or 50 Shades because of its problematic depictions do not have "mental issues." We are capable of separating fantasy from reality, we just don't want that **** in our fantasy either.
     
  2. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    could not have said it better. =D=
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  3. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2016
    Bloody heck, this thread. I feel somewhat weird reading the past few posts. I just don't know what to say.
     
    Troopa212 likes this.
  4. Lucillalin

    Lucillalin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2016
    I'm proud of the fact that villains in American movies tend to look like my long lost, evil brothers. I don't know why characters with light hair have to be the evil ones (and often have British upper class accent), but I really don't mind, I find blond evil men appealing (in fiction, people love different things in real life and fiction, note to the 50 shades conversation. People are funny like that)

    The Empire had inspirations from Nazis, but British Empire as well, in the eyes of some of us Europeans, every American made scifi-francise is an allegory of brave Americans fighting their colonial rulers. Expance being the latest example...
     
  5. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    As one of the New Films mods, I will say that let's not delve too deep into "rape culture" and all that unless that is somehow pertinent to the thread, as it may be. But if it starts to drag this thread off topic, we will issue a cease and desist.

    Back to one of the sub-topics here, it would be wise to expand the casting of villains beyond "white males" unless there is some specific need otherwise (which then should be made clear within the movie itself - i.e., we hate women, hate aliens, hate anything not like us...). IMHO.

    I'm older than most of you, and I remember when the "bad guys" used to be East Germans, or Soviet Russia citizens, (TV shows, etc.). Then the "flavor" of villain changed.

    Now, I'd expect villains to represent the diversity of humankind much as I expect the same for leads, support actors, and cameos.

    Unfortunately, it seems diversity comes in waves - we "tackle one problem" before moving on to the next. Wave 1 may be men of color, or it may be women, or it may be....
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I suddenly have the urge to watch Die Hard. Or Hunt for Red October. :p
     
  7. Master of None

    Master of None Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Both good choices :)
     
  8. Hazevamp

    Hazevamp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2016
    I wasn't going to reply but let me clear this up.

    I never made the argument that "It's not sexist because women like it" My argument is that it isn't sexist to everyone. If it is to you, then that's just your opinion. imo, It's just something certain people like and the book and movie was written to appeal to them. Not you and others who hate it. In other words, I was defending it's right to exist. Like it or not, some women do like men like Grey and want to see them on screen and in the media. It's their right to have it and its the right of any writer, producer, director to give them that. Not everything can appeal to everyone and I don't believe in trying to control other people's desires and tell other people what they should and should not enjoy in their lives. I don't own anyone, and neither do you. You don't know what's in their heads or hearts or what they believe their position in life should be and I find it insulting for you to try and presume you know it because they like something you don't like, or are attracted to certain men you don't like, or want to read a book you find appalling. Heck, There are women who loved Kylo Ren's line "I can take whatever I want." does that mean you understand their entire belief system over them loving one line in one movie?

    Also, I never said people who don't enjoy the romance genre and 50 Shades had mental issues. I'm saying that the people who enjoy that are usually capable of understanding there is a difference between fiction and reality and are not out condoning rape and abuse.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Not sure who or what you are arguing with...?

    This is also not about the 50 Shades franchise's right to exist. It's about whether the tropes in that franchise should appear in Star Wars.

    I am still going with no. Star Wars, with the exception of the character assassinations of Padme and Ventress that I mentioned previously, has always featured strong, independent women characters and should continue to do so.

    I hope that Kylo Ren is never dumb or arrogant enough to tell Rey that he can "take whatever he wants" again, and if he does, I hope he gets his arse kicked from Ach-To to Tatooine. Or Mustafar.

    I hope Kelly Marie Tran's character bears some similarity to Jyn Erso.
     
  10. Ben Skylo

    Ben Skylo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2016


    What a .....preformance.
    Nice try, but I will not bite.
    Anyone who read what I wrote knows the difference between what I said and what you fabricated I said. Happens to you a lot. When done to the extent in which you do it, it can not be considered unitentional, and it most certainly does not contribute to the constructive discussion, so I'll pass, thank you.

    On all but Han and Leia's kiss. There is no 'rape' culture there. Not in any of their scenes. It is a PG-13 movie afterall. To respect 'No means no' is a great thing to teach your children. I do the same. As well as to have a crytical mind and common sense. But Han and Leia's romance is certainly not under that category of glorifying rape. If you think it is, then i hope you don't let your kids watch unedited ESB, but the version in which you deleted all the questionable scences. Cuz they might get confused.

    On all the rest I will give you one advice though:
    Let go of your hate. Hate is the path to the dark side. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to suffering.




    None of us is in the position to tell someone else what they need to do with their art work (even if some of us like to think they are that important), so yes I am arguing that, from the point of equality and fair representation, including more diversity in "evil" characters they could do it differently. :)


    Do you really not see my point? Why is diversity acceptable and desirable only in positive context but not in negative as well? Then we stick to false tropes that we argue against as unacceptable when it comes to the good guys. Specially if we agree that in the real world it is fairly represented? And if we say that movies, SW movies should draw more from the real world to reflect it? Do you argue selective drawing from the real world, then? Why? What could be the purpose of that?

    Plus to add...I watched R1 last night. I really liked it. And even if K is my favorite I really liked Diego's Luna character. Now...if i say that, inspite if the discussions I read and had here, I never really noticed his ethnicity at all, will I be accused of racism and white supremacy again somehow?

    Valairy Scot
    My appologies, I replied prior to reading the rest of the thread.
    I like how you use Luke's blue for modding comments, not screaming bold red, did I say that already? I think it is a very nice touch :)

    @Ben Skylo. LOL on you loving the blue. With that said, you are getting personal with posters (what I highlighted in red - note: red for warning). You are free to disagree with any posters' comments, even to point out when you think your words have been misconstrued.

    Mini-modding is also something cropping up in your posts - let the mods do the finger wagging when and if necessary, 'k?
     
  11. Hazevamp

    Hazevamp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2016
    I'm not arguing with anyone. I simply disagree with your opinion about "rape culture". The Han and Leia kiss isn't rape culture(something you brought up btw).

    Anything the writers deem needed to tell the story should be allowed to appear in Star Wars. I don't believe writers should be limited in their storytelling out of fear of offending others, If the character's development is meant to go a certain route then that is where it should go regardless of who it offends.

    Well Rey already mind raped him after he said it, so apparently she can take whatever she wants too.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It's not about "who it offends." It's about not turning Star Wars into a sappy romance when it never was, and many people agree that romance is not its strong suit. The Anakin/Padme romance was pretty well maligned, and that is despite the fact that Padme was still mostly a badass in AOTC. Writers who want to write Harlequin romances with ripped bodice men "taking" what they want from meek damselly women have an entire genre to work with in supermarket paperbacks.

    And before anyone argues that "Star Wars has never had women or POC leads either," please recognize the difference between hiring choices and characterization that was disallowed in the past by racism and sexism (and based on some of the responses in this thread and a few others, still criticized) but allowed now due to a civilized recognition that women and POC are capable of playing something other than a stereotypical role, and the idea that Star Wars should become a supermarket romance instead of a great sci/fi-fantasy story set in space. (Science fiction/fantasy often does make social commentary. Star Wars would go pretty far downhill if it made the social commentary that "women need to submit to men.")
     
  13. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I'm Latina and you have no idea how excited I am now that we have Poe and Cassian (but I still hope we'll see a Brazilian actor/actress in Star Wars someday). Dr Aphra and Sana are important too because they're woc and LGBT (we don't know about Poe/Finn for now, although I love FinnRey I would be very happy with FinnPoe)
     
  14. Hazevamp

    Hazevamp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Like Star Wars shouldn't be turned into a war movie like R1? Or how SW shouldn't have female leads? Lots of people have their own visions of what SW should and should not be. That doesn't make them or you right. IMO, Star Wars is such a big world that literally any story can be told. Star Wars have already told romantic stories that worked, with the Revan and Bastilla romance in KOTOR. Han and Leia in the OT. The issue is that Lucas sucked at writing/conveying romance. So I don't consider his failed prequels to be the end all be all "romance shouldn't belong in Star Wars" nail in the coffin you seem to view it as. The romance in the PT is just one of the many aspects that trilogy failed at. It's not like it alone made the movies fall.

    And I love how you speak for everyone. "What WE want in OUR Sci/fantasy..." Right now the Reylo fanbase is going pretty strong and they are hoping that Kylo and Rey have a romance. Then you have the Rey and Finn fanbase who wish for the same thing. Not to mention those who wanted Finn and Poe to become lovers, Oh yeah and the two Asian men in R1. How about the biggest most active fanbase of them all, which is Kylux (Kylo and Hux). Sounds to me like SW fans want a lot of things, including romance.

    And I never once said SW should become a supermarket romance. You're just over exaggerating big time at this point.
     
  15. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    SW wasn't turned into anything in R1. SW movies have always been war movies, every single one of them.

    I have never once seen a Kylo/Hux shipper tell non-shippers that if they don't understand that Kylo/Hux are going to fall in love, they don't understand film making. Not all shipper communities hold the belief that their ship must actually be depicted in movies and become the focus of the trilogy.
     
  16. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Okay, all, PEACE ON EARTH (AND GFFA) TO ALL!

    In earthly terms, let's try to watch our tone. You're all okay for now, but I'm getting a sense that MAY change. Phrases like, "Lucas sucked at..." and such that imply that is the viewpoint of everyone is a bit extreme.

    A reminder as well - the term "mind rape" is disallowed on this forum. Flat out. No arguing this with me or any other mod.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    "Star Wars should not have female leads" is a sexist statement that I addressed in the second paragraph of my post about how the filmmaking industry has progressed, even from the 70s and 80s, to the point where it is no longer considered acceptable to relegate women characters only to stereotypical damsel-in-distress supporting acts to the male lead. And that is a very very good thing despite all the protests on dudebro centric sites.

    And Rogue One focused mostly on non-Force-users but did not change what Star Wars is, a sci-fi/fantasy movie with lots of action in which the good guys win in the end (even if they sometimes pay with their lives). Of course Star Wars can and often does have romance, but the only Star Wars stories that could be considered a "romance story" with the woman character being diminished are ROTS and Dark Disciple, which were really terrible. Han and Leia's romance, despite some outdated tropes in some scenes, was really good and could be compared more to Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, with Elizabeth not tolerating bull****. I kind of hope for Finn/Rey myself, because I expect the same dynamic, and don't see Rey becoming the shrinking violet that Padme became. And their dynamic is fun, with Finn himself being a fun guy.

    All that aside, romance has never been the center of Star Wars, except in the really terrible examples that I mentioned (ROTS and DD) so it is not a "romance story." (And Lucas did not write Dark Disciple.)

    That was the point. I am not sure what the agenda would be behind trying to turn Star Wars into a so-called "traditional" or "old fashioned" romance story when there are plenty of those out there already. What exactly would be wrong with keeping the romances in Star Wars as side plot points and ensuring that the romantic partners are partners, as opposed to the woman being meek and submissive?
     
  18. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Recently I saw complaints about the lack of women in Rogue One, and I have to remember that in OT there were practically just Leia and Mon. I love OT and Rogue One, but I agree with the complaints and I hope that in VIII we will have a lot of women working together. In TFA we had (except the protagonist, Rey):

    -Kor Sella: a woc who died without a line
    -Leia: Who had little time on screen
    -Maz: Who had few scenes but had a good dialogue with Rey about the Force
    -Phasma: I expected more from her, but it wasn't too bad.
    -Jessika Pava: Few scenes, I hope to see her in VIII

    Not bad, but they can do better in the next movie
     
  19. starfish

    starfish Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    I read somewhere, I forget where now, that Billie Lourds character was going to have more screen time in VIII
     
  20. Hazevamp

    Hazevamp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Those are the complaints I've heard about R1. Some folks are unhappy with it because they felt it was a dark war movie and their claim is that SW isn't/shouldn't be about that. I loved R1 and IMO, SW should just go Rated R on one of their movies because I love dark and gritty films.

    **Before people take that and run off with it: I'm NOT saying the entire franchise should go dark, just that I would love at least one dark (R rated) SW movie.

    Anyway, My point to Anakinfan, (who began speaking for the entire SW fanbase by stating that romance is something no one wanted), is that SW fans do attach romance to the SW stories. To say that they don't is a false statement. I'm a Kylux shipper and I don't believe that they would be a canon couple. But I enjoy head canoning them as such.Therefore I am attaching romance to SW in some way. The Reylo fanbase most certainly do believe Kylo and Rey will hook up. There are entire threads analyzing their every interaction and what it could mean for their future. The Finnrey fanbase also believe their ship could become canon. Which is why the two fanbases tend to butt heads. Their were also many articles about Poe and Finn being the first gay romance in SW, and now the fanbase has latched onto the two Asian characters in R1. Selecting one fanbase out of many does not negate what I've said. Which is, Anakinfan does not speak for the entire SW fanbase.

    anakinfansince1983, I really don't know what to say to you anymore because it seems like you are just pulling arguments and statements no one has said out of thin air and just running with it straight into the horizon and beyond. Most of our convo has been you doing that and me trying to clarify and bring you back into the reality of what was actually said. Yet you are so hell bent on creating a mountain out of a general example of how women popularized romance novels and 50 shades of Grey, which had nothing at all to do with SW anyway. And you keep doing this, even after stating yourself that the topic has nothing to do with SW. lol!! No one is even arguing in favor of bodice rippers in SW, you are totally arguing with yourself on that score.

    But I'll leave you to it. [face_laugh]
     
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  21. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    It'd be nice if some of them (Rey, KMT, Connix, etc) would actually get some decent screentime/interactions/conversations with each other. Because, aside from Rey and Maz in TFA (which was like one scene), that hasn't really happened in a "main saga" film yet.

    With RO, I was talking to one of my female friends about it and she put it simply yet effectively. "Was there any reason why one of the other team members beside Jyn couldn't have been a woman to? I mean they could have been pretty much the same type of character even if they were female, so would that have really hurt the movie?"
     
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  22. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Regarding the comments about ESB; the Han/Leia dynamic gets a pass with a lot of people due to familiarity and the fact that Leia is written to eventually be OK with the hassling and to fall in love with Han, as well as because Han is the dashing hero and all that.

    But his behaviour towards Leia is absolutely harassment; that's not me saying that as a "...and therefore I can never again enjoy ESB" - it's a reasonable, arguably inevitable conclusion to draw from the way Han behaves towards her, and the way she repeatedly has to reject advances - as written, it absolutely would constitute harrassment.
     
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  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You can drop any condescension about "bringing me back to reality" or any snark about my reading comprehension skills.

    If you don't want people to think that you are arguing in favor of bad romantic tropes in Star Wars, don't argue in favor of bad romantic tropes in Star Wars. If you were not arguing in favor of "traditional" romantic roles for women in Star Wars and you did not make that point clear, that is not the problem of those of us who read that into your posts (and I was not the only one).

    I'm familiar enough with the fan fiction universe to know that people will literally ship anything. Some of the ships would work in the context of the overall themes of Star Wars, some would not. (I'm not particularly interested in Kylo/Hux but I think that is one that might work.)

    And bad tropes for women characters ARE "a mountain," and also relevant to the topic of diversity.
     
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  24. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Surely a point about things like 50 shades, as they relate to pop culture, is that they casually massively misrepresent the dynamics of a specific type of sexual relationship/dynamic, while also presenting the misrepresentation as almost the definition of it. And that that has a slightly disturbing trickle down effect, which absolutely does manifest in Star Wars fandom where you have people arguing for things like Rey and Kylo getting together, their perceived potential for which is absolutely to some extent informed by misconceptions about the range of healthy relationships
     
  25. Hazevamp

    Hazevamp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Once again, I was not arguing in favor of romance novels in SW.

    I mentioned that the Han and Leia kiss was fine. Disagreeing with your rape culture argument.

    Someone brought up 50 Shades to say Rape culture is real.

    I disagreed, stating that it's just something some people like and it's not meant to appeal to those who don't like it, I also brought up romance novels to emphasize that point.

    At no point did I or anyone else state that romance novels should be apart of SW or that romance should be at the forefront. I merely disagreed with your out there rant where you presume to arrogantly speak for the entire SW fanbase about romance in SW. "What WE want..." The SW fanbase comprises of millions of people and I'm all for a variety of different stories being told within the universe, whether they appeal to me or you or not.

    Back to the topic of diversity. One could argue that ALL tropes are bad, even those that display a character in a positive light. But, sometimes a trope, even a negative one, can work if done right. I'm not interested in just having a female lead or a poc lead if the character is going to be watered down out of fear of portraying them in a negative light in any way shape or form. Sadly, too many writers are afraid to even write these characters out of fear that they would do just that and have people breathing down their neck as a result. The results are fewer female and poc characters that could be out there in the media. I would love it if SW had a woc Darkside user/Sith Lord. But not if she's some watered down version of it because the writer is too freaking scared to take that character were they need to go in the story to make them compelling and interesting.

    Here is a good video on Narrative traps, tropes, and "strong" female characters.