Do Chromosomes Matter? Guys, how much mush can you read in a story; gals, how much hardware?

Goes to show lessons will kill off a thread in no time!

 

Frankly, I couldn't be happier to see a lesson kill a thread.

 

Frankly, I couldn't be happier to see a lesson kill a thread.

There's a tolerant, friendly feeling! ?

 

I'm sorry, but I absolutely hate stereotypes of every kind. Nothing more to it than that.

 

Except that there's usually a grain of truth in every stereotype. It's why they permeate society; if they were complete and total lies, they would usually get ignored. I'm not saying that some stereotypes *aren't* complete and total lies, but they usually fall by the wayside after a few hundred years.

Men, as a whole, are usually more aggressive and a little more independent. Women, as a whole are usually a little more nurturing, and have a little more group mentality. There are, of course, women who are more aggressive and independent, and men who are more nurturing and who work better in groups. But, as a whole, these 'stereotypes' are not utter lies. Maybe it's culture, maybe it really is ingrained in our instincts and DNA. I don't think we've got the expertise to make that determination. But what I can tell, from life observation, and what most people can tell, is that there is some truth to them.

There's a reason that some films are marketed towards women(and do well with women) and some films are marketed towards men(and do well with men). I'll admit it probably has a great deal to do with culture, but I think it also has something to do with instinct and just being the way we are.

That being said, while I'm not a huge fan of mush for it's own sake, I am a huge fan of romance for the sake of a story. Sensual dialogue, really getting to the core of a characters feelings, really gets me. I'll always remember lines like "You know how to whistle, don't you, Rick? You just put your lips together and blow." Lauren Bacall was able to put so many meanings and feelings into that one line of dialogue that it has stuck with me. Characters endlessly telling each other that they love each other bothers me, because it doesn't make any sense: Why would you need to constantly reaffirm that, if you really did love each other?

I also don't think it's neccessary to show sex, or even describing any kind of physical contact beyond kissing, on screen or on the page. It's not because I'm offended: it's fine if you like it. It's because I just don't feel it's usually neccessary to the story. In fact, it usually detracts from it. We didn't *need* to see Halle Berry's breasts in Swordfish(though I'll admit that it was one of the highlights of an otherwise pretty bad movie). I love sensuality, but I prefer the imminence of sex to the actual presence of sex, at least in my fiction.

And men can really go for mush, if it's presented in the right context(for instance, the mush in Star Wars). Afterall, the Illiad is one of the greatest epic works about a massive war of all time, enjoyed by people throughout the centuries(I believe that Alexander the Great kept a copy at the foot of his bed at all times), and it is almost the *definition* of a soap opera, with more mush than you can shake a stick at.

Anyhow, just my opinions.

 

I believe Mark Twain said it best when he said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." No matter what "grain of truth" stereotypes may contain, they promote thinking that people aren't entitled to be thought of as individuals.

 

What a great answer, Coota! (Anyone bringing up La Bacall in To Have And Have Not wins my entire chocolate cupboard any day! ) But surely I wouldn't call a Bogie-Bacall scene "mush", IOW "sentimental". Which doesn't mean sentiments are not being implied, of course. But let's compare it to the last Rick/Ilse scene in Casablanca (you know, the "the problems of three little people don?t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world...we'll always have Paris" scene) which is practically unadulterated mush: in one, there's tension, sexual innuendo, humor, acknowledgement of each other's independence,promise of things to come. In the other, sheer schmaltzy tripe with one character calling all the shots. Now I'm a Casablanca fan with the best of them; but there definitely is a difference. Seems to me a lot of "guy readers," and quite a few women, would cringe at Ilse, but none at Bacall.

(And the funny thing is that it entirely relies on the sharpness of the dialogue and the actors' qualities. The Casablanca story/screenplay is infinitely better that the To Have And Have Not one, which drove Hemingway, whose book was botched, to fury.)

As the self-discovered writer of an action story (Hitchhiker started as a Chiss Meets Gal challenge, then -- pesky characters! -- changed from under my feet with little warning ), I've always wondered how much of the 'shippers audience would stick with me when it turned out the ratio of Luv Scenes was about 15% to 85% action & General Guy Stuff. And part of this is due precisely to your Less Is More theory. I can imagine a lot of embarrassing sentimental stuff said by Luke, especially the younger Luke; but Thrawn? Puh-leeeeze. As for the more risqué stuff, very few explicit sex scenes turn me on. (Some do! ) But anticipation.... hmmmmmmm. If the book/movie lets your imagination work, it's almost always better. Also, a reader left hungering for more is a keener reader!

I would agree with your definition of The Iliad as (sublime) soap opera; but then to me soap opera is the blending of a lot of elements, of which mush is only one component. War, deception, greed, pride, self-delusion, friendship, hatred all come into it. I think we'll agree that Homer got his mix right.

My question was really about the proportions of the mix. I personally find myself skipping the dogfights passages in Stackpole, an acknowledged master of the genre. (I also tend to drop PWP fanfic with little more than Jag/Jaina, or Luke/Mara, or Han/Leia, or whatever, mush; but I tell myself I do this on grounds of taste. ) I've written for both women's and men's mags, and believe me, it sometimes felt like being at opposite ends of the galaxy.

 

Anakin: I don't see any point in not using stereotypes to form generalized assumptions of groups. If, when you meet specific members of that group, they completely defy your generalized assumptions, too bad, you're wrong. No big deal. If having a general idea of how their group functions helps you better understand them as a person, however, you have a step in the right direction.

Everything can be qualified as a stereotype by politically correct nazis. If I said all French people speak French, that's technically a stereotype. It doesn't mean it's wrong. If people get overly sensitive about things like this, all we have is a bunch of people trying to not step on everyone elses toes.

There's a difference between stereotypes and prejudice; stereotypes are used to generalize groups using basic elements of what you know about them(wrong or not), and increase understanding. Prejudice is using what you think you know about groups to color your judgement of them negatively. An intelligent human being can tell the difference.

And Mark Twains quote has no relevance here, other than it being trendy to use quotes to settle arguments. Stereotypes are not statistics, they're(most of the time) educated guesses that could very well be wrong, and are usually admitted as such the second someone comes in contact with the stereotyped group. They aren't lies or damn lies, either, as lies are entirely untruthful. So I don't see the point.

Anyways, I doubt we're going to agree on this point, so I'm stopping now. I just hate political correctness with a passion. It emasculates our society and tries to ignore that there really are group mentalities in our world.

 

Anyone who actually knows me can tell you political correctness is hardly foremost on my mind, but whatever. I'm sorry you don't see how the quote relates to what I was saying, but there's really no need to be rude. And I'm going to have to disagree on your argument about group mentality, because while that does almost make sense when you're actually talking about groups, gender is quite another thing. You're talking about half of the population when you talk about gender, any generalization made about such a large "group" is almost guaranteed to be inaccurate in an absurdly high number of cases.

 

J_A_S, the whole point of a forum thread is that we're having a quiet and hopefully entertaining discussion with people we've never met; and therefore we don't much care if IRL you are, or are not, devoted to PCdom. You're the one in danger of being rude, not to mention off-topic. All you've been doing for the last few posts is repeat your set beliefs with no variation or attempt at seeing the others' point of view. I think by now you have got your point across, thankyouverymuch. If you don't care about the premises raised and the questions discussed here, no-one's forcing you to read.

 

On the original tack; I thought Casablanca was a perfect balance of mush to story, as the story wasn't really about the guy and the girl. It was about Rick's choice, and it had to be entirely his choice. Therefore, sadly, the girl had to be submissive. An excessive layer of mush had to be pushed on the viewer in order to show why Rick wasn't nearly as idealistic as he used to be, and why going back on his idealistic path was so important. But, of course, you probably know that.

But my point is that if mush is as pivotal to a plotline as that, I'm all for it. And like you mentioned with the Illiad, a soap opera epic needs all those things to work: action, adventure, intrigue, and yes, even mush. The Illiad is a perfect example of mixing all of that together. Heck, so is the Oddyssey, especially with Oddysseus and his wife. Though I think that's more true love than mush, but I'm not sure what definition of mush we're using.

So, if mush works in with all the other aspects of the story, I think guys can stomach it, and even enjoy it. Mush for mushes sake... I'm not sure how many readers that'd pull in, personally.

 

I'm curious as to whether anyone knows any male fanfic readers/writers who like to write/read fics with the hurt/comfort theme.

And on the other subject, people tend to get uptight these days when you say anything about one gender having certain characteristics. You can't even say 'men tend to be taller than women' or 'men tend to be stronger than women' without people calling it an oppressive stereotype.

 

'men tend to be taller than women'
'men tend to be stronger than women'

No! Noooo! That's not true! That's impossible!!!

 

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.