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CT Do stormtroopers get an unfair reputation for being clumsy shots?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by StartCenterEnd, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2006
    Think about it. In ANH they blast through Tantive IV dropping rebel troops left and right. They try to stop the Falcon from taking off so are blasting at it with heavy artilary and not at Han.

    On the Death Star they are sucker punched when they go to investigate the Falcon. The imperial officers in the control room are taken by surprise more than missing shots, same as the officers in the detention block. The stormtroopers stand off in same detention block is fired in a thin hall to the left of them with lots of smoke all over and the heroes taking shelter on the protruding sides of the hallway and all four are shooting wildly out of the corridor constantly, making it difficult for the troops to take a shot without being shot.

    The troopers are again taken by surprise and spooked by Han when he goes crazy and gives chase. Then he backs out of that garrison before they have time to retaliate again using the winding corridors of the Death Star for cover. Luke and Leia too use the twisting corridors and fleeing speed to evade the troopers before they could get a clean shot. The stormtroopers blasts would have hit Luke right in the face had Leia not closed the blast door. Next, Luke and Leia take cover on the alcoves of the doorway to shoot the troopers above them and swing across quickly. The troopers that fire at the heroes as they board the Falcon are very far away and the Falcons boarding ramp deflects many of the blasts.

    In review it seems like the stormtroopers on the Death Star are just not trained for, or prepared to fight guirella insurgents. They are trained for overwhelming battlefield combat it seems. The heroes are just more sneaky and have the element of surprise. The stormtroopers also feel too powerful and secure aboard the mighty Death Star to expect such attacks so close to home. The older more experienced stormtrooper used to nothing going wrong advises his younger counterpart to relax. "That's nothing. Outgassing, don't worry about it" a classic case where experience in a rapidly changing world is more of a liability than an advantage!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    "Close the blast doors!"
     
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  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Not really.

     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No. The Stormtroopers were put through the same training the Clonetroopers were put through and they fought in guerrilla conditions. The Stormtroopers just cannot kill the main cast for the simple fact of plot shielding. When we see them kill Rebel troops and the characters from "Rogue One", we know that they are quite capable of getting the job done.
     
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  5. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I mean it all falls down to plot armor. You usually do not kill your main characters in these types of movies unless they are the mentor. Thus they always missed the heros. Except for that one time Leia was shot.
     
  6. Your Pal Friendpatine

    Your Pal Friendpatine Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 29, 2017
    According to our dearly departed Emperor those guys at Endor were the Imperial All-Stars and they got thumped by the Ewoks.
     
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  7. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Who they didn't know about who also had advanced fighting techniques and strategy:



    They took out our heroes very easily.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  8. Your Pal Friendpatine

    Your Pal Friendpatine Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 29, 2017
    I like the Ewoks but "advanced fighting techniques and strategy"? They were effective but primitive and there's nothing too advanced about throwing rocks or beating somebody about the head with a stick. As for capturing our heroes, thanks to Chewie they stumbled into what was presumably a hunting trap but after getting out of the net they allowed themselves to be taken prisoner at Luke's insistence. Luke could have sparked up his lightsaber and the rest could have opened fire but it wouldn't really have been the Jedi/Alliance way.
     
  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    We are back to the # 1 Star Wars Myth of the "imprecise stormtrooper".

    Sure, there were most likely some newbie stormtroopers on the Death Star, but the toughest stormtrooper we see (hardly dodging his head) as Luke and Leia fire at him, trying to swing across the chasm, was most likely a pro, who shot but deliberately missed.

    At some point Vader put his new plan in action, i.e. to let the princess and her rescuers escape so that they would lead the Death Star to the Alliance's hidden base on Yavin IV.


    LEIA That doesn't sound too hard. Besides,
    they let us go. It's the only
    explanation for the ease of our
    escape.


    She didn't only refer to the four patrol TIE fighters...

    I also think it's obvious that Lucas (and/or Willard and Katz) struggled with the script not to disclose Vader's plan (to maintain the illusion that our protagonists were in danger).

    These lines

    INTERCOM VOICE Governor Tarkin, we have an emergency
    alert in detention block A A-twenty-
    three.


    TARKIN The princess! Put all sections on
    alert!


    should or could have been followed by this:

    VADER She
    may yet be of some use to us.

    but instead we were (deliberately?) distracted by Vader talking about Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Had the audience more carefully listened to Obi-Wan Kenobi earlier in the film

    BEN And these blast points, too accurate
    for Sandpeople. Only Imperial
    stormtroopers are so precise.

    it would have been obvious that several events on the Death Star looked somewhat odd.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. Merrick Simms

    Merrick Simms Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Yes, all these points are valid, but looking at it another way, the clones were created for combat, while the stormtroopers are recruited from the general population. Even assuming a higher level of training than the Imperial army, they have precious little experience in actual combat compared to the Clones. Their role seems to be a mix of Marines, police and bully boy enforcers. They are seen beating up on civilians more than expecting effective military resistance. Their best combat effort is probably the boarding of the Tantive IV. They use explosive entry and move quickly to clear the funnel of death. This kind of action is probably what they practice the most for, and it shows. Also, these were Vader's personal legion, the 501st. There is no explanation for Endor/ the Ewoks, except I suspect that by that stage, GL was annoyed with the level of Empire love in the fan base, and decided to humiliate them. Who knows, thats my take anyway.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    "There's nothing wrong with a little shooting. As long as the right people get shot."
     
  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Sheer numbers of carnivorous piranhas in Teddy Bear fur. Admittedly production limitations (and limited availability of actors with dwarfism) of ROJ couldn't reveal that on screen. ;)

    A historic analogy might be North Africa natives that served in the French Army during WW I and WW II. Supposedly they were such ferocious warriors during WW I that the mere sight of them advancing made German Wehrmacht soldiers in WW II hastily abandon their posts.
     
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It also helped that Chewbacca used an AT-ST to turn the tide in favor of the strike team. And no, Stormtroopers are still trained for combat. The only thing that changed this time was that the enemy used primitive weapons whereas the Alliance troopers, the surviving Jedi Knights and the Droid Army had used advanced weaponry that were expected. Some of the Ewok techniques were ones that the Clonetroopers and the Jedi had used during the Clone Wars, while others were entirely off putting. Also, there were only four AT-ST's and the AT-AT wasn't present. The AT-ST's were less heavily armored than their four legged counterparts. The Stormtroopers were also only using blasters and Speeder Bikes, as they were only planning on a small strike team to infiltrate the base. They weren't as heavily armed as the Stormtroopers on Hoth or places like Geonosis, Scarrif and Utapau. This was an advantage that the Ewoks had.

    More recent at the time was the Viet Cong, who didn't have the sheer firepower that the US forces did, but managed to hold their own in many battles. Lucas was inspired by that.
     
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  14. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Yep. It's basically ROTJ's fault.

    The were keystone cops in that movie, and every movie since.

    Prior to that they held their own.

    Mercifully they hit a few targets in R1, but essentially 1 rebel is worth about 25 stormtroopers in a firefight.
     
  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The stormtroopers in ROTJ hit more targets than those in ANH or ESB.
     
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  17. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    Huh, could have bad memory, but only recall them definitely hitting leia, and maybe some rebels and or ewoks (more unlikely ewoks will always stupidly win)? I do remember in a deleted scene a rebel was killed in the shield generator base during a shootout
     
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Shooting Leia is more than ESB for a start unless you count 3PO at point blank range on cloud city.

    R2 got it. Leia also got shot off her bike earlier. The Ewok glider. The Ewok that gets eulogised. I'm sure some of the rebel assault team are seen falling in battle. And not from exhaustion.

    Two or three Tantive crewman are shot on screen in ANH.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  19. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 26, 2016
    When I was little, I remember thinking (or seeing official definitions) of the Stormtroopers as the ELITE shock troops of the Empire. I imagined that everytime we actually saw them, it was because they were doing Vader´s bidding, as part of some particularly important operation (get the Death Star plans, get Luke, defend the Shield Generator, etc).

    As such, I always assumed that if they failed, it´s because, well, it´s not the kind of movie that will kill its main characters in the first half hour, and the Force is not on their side. But then things started to go sideways a little, with the Coruscant Guard and eventually a number of other organizations being some kind of, well, elite force above the Stormtroopers. Suddently, to my surprise, the Stormtroopers began to be used as nothing more than cops, and some material greatly diminished their role, basically using them as a stepping stone for other characters to rise (weren´t two bounty hunter girls said to beat like 10 stormtroopers with their bare hands in a matter of seconds in SOTE?).

    Even if I like a lot Rebels, it´s a good example of the same thing happening in canon. It´s also implied that they are inferior to clones, (something I´m not sure to accept as a hard fact) so I was happy to see, in Rogue 1 and TFA, an apparently conscious effort to make them a more serious and effective threat.

    Still, I believe there was room for a more "regular" trooper in the Empire that fulfill the role of general police in occupied worlds. A stormtrooper showing up means a whole new different level of danger, like in the Jedi Knight videogame, where you spend the first 5 missions without seeing a single one. In mission 6, when Katarn hears them through a wall for the first time, he even comments it to himself, alerted on their presence. That´s the kind of respect I would love to see more often towards them...
     
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  20. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    I think that might be a false memory there. They killed more Alliance extras on the Tantiv in 2 mins than in the entire battle of Endor.
     
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  21. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    Your name would say differently...
     
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  22. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 6, 2017
    There is a story about this in "A Certain Point of View"
     
  23. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Pretty sure the Imperial Stormtroopers were pretty precise. Whether clones or recruits, they hit their targets and appeared to be following instructions whether to shoot to kill or not. I.e. they must have been under instructions to take people alive in ANH (Vader said as much), and in ESB (in order to torture his friends, and draw Luke to him).

    I actually thought the Imperials were pretty cool

    The only battle they should have nailed was the ground battle at Endor. Just stand your ground. Don't disperse, and don't open that door.
     
  24. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    "Precise or precision" is different than "accuracy". An accurate shot is one that hits the target. A precise shot is one that hits an exact location within a target repeatedly. It takes more skill to be precise then it does to be accurate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Thank you Obi Wan.

    All I was saying is that the Imperial Stormtroopers were effective when they needed to be. And it is apparent that they were under instructions not to kill in many of the scenarios displayed in the films. To be honest, even the Rebels don't seem that accurate. The only truly precise, or accurate, or decent, or whatever terminology you wish to use, the best shots were the heroes of both sides.

    But to quote Obi Wan, "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise!"