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Saga Do the Sequels increase or decrease the value of the saga to you?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, May 11, 2022.

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Did the Sequels have a positive impact on the Star Wars saga to you?

  1. Yes

    23 vote(s)
    26.4%
  2. No

    64 vote(s)
    73.6%
  1. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    You seem to be suggesting that ROTJ ended in a "to be continued..." sort of way which is not true at all. It was a finale. As I have said, yes ROTJ suggested that Luke would train Leia. Then, we saw this in both the old EU and the ST.

    As far as Han and Leia staying happy together.... That's a reach. Han and Leia literally just started their relationship in ROTJ.

    Not only is it hyperbolic to say that a post ROTJ continuing story was "clearly shown in "....it is simply not true.

    Nobody really anticipated, nor expected, more Star Wars films showing events after ROTJ. The future of Luke and friends was wide open, but to say that with any certainty ROTJ was clearly pointing to more story with any specificity is false. I'm not sure how old you are. Perhaps this is how you felt at the time, but this certainly wasn't a general sentiment/thought expectation amongst fans/viewers. Most knew ROTJ was the end.

    At the release of ROTJ, and for decades after, Lucas himself repeatedly stated that ROTJ was the end of his story. Again, Lucas repeatedly and flat out denied that there was more story after ROTJ. From 1985 onwards, Star Wars lay dormant as a property for year. The only whispers fans heard of future SW films were talk of the adventures of a Young Obi-Wan and Vader...not of the continuing adventures of Luke.

    All of this is fine. I actually agree with most it. It doesn't change the fact that ROTJ did not hint/suggest/discuss a New Republic whatsoever. The potential post Empire galaxy was not even hinted at even in the slightest. To say it was is false. To say that ROTJ insinuated that Leia would help to build/lead a democratic government after the movie is a misreading of the film.

    Perhaps you've misread the movies? Could it be we (gasp) interpret art differently?

    Evil leaders seeking power don't exist in a vacuum. Look at Hitler. Look at Trump. They were supported by bootlickers and those either too afraid to stand up to them, or with too much to gain with them in office.

    In Star Wars PT, the damn near the entire Senate enables/allowes Palpatine to take control. In Episode 3, you basically had Padme, Organa, and these folks as the only good/sensible/just portion of government remaining. It was corrupt and Palpatine saw that and used it to rise to power.

    No one in government to support Palpatine = No Emperor=No Emperor.

    Again, Palpatine doesn't rise to power on his own. You saw the PT.
    Before Senator Palpatine ever gets elected Chancellor the government is corrupt without Palpatine's machinations. Once he is chancellor, Palps continues to leverage the weak, the greedy, the vulnerable, against each other.

    That's great. That's also not shown, talked about, hinted at, or discussed in ROTJ. We see the fall of the Empire. We don't have any whisper of a rebuilding era after ROTJ. Full stop.


    Damn. Should of just quoted this before I typed all the above. Well said.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2022
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  2. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    You just made yet another extremely long post, which does not even respond to anything I said.
    Palpatine rose to power ON HIS OWN, this is a fact. Not a debate. Any other interpretation is objectively wrong.
    All the events that led to the rise of the Empire, were literally caused by his actions. All of them.
     
  3. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Yeah without the clone wars, and emergency powers Palpatine gained over his years as Chancellor, there is no way he could have just stood up in front of the senate and go 'you know what I'm taking over y'all'

    He'd be laughed out the senate in a heartbeat. Remember Valorum was voted out in TPM. The people that applauded the empire were not all corrupted senators. Some were tired of the war, and were naïve to think mild-mannered Palpatine was offering peace and security, a Republic but in a different name.

    And anyway, there is a difference between corruption forming in a Republic that has known general peace for over a thousand years and a newly formed one thirty years later. Especially after said corruption caused the death of millions, maybe even billions of people and the end of democracy itself.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The set up in the Aftermath novels and Bloodline was decent. There were politicians and citizens who were too young to know anything other than the Empire. There were also those who saw the fall of the Empire corresponding with rising crime and economic unrest. Some overlap existed between both groups although the Venn diagram was not a solid circle. They were nostalgic for the Empire because they felt safer when it was in place, and they did not have the patience for the process of democracy (which TPM caricatured pretty well).

    The ST did not follow through on that at all though. It instead centered its story around a wannabe fascist whom we are supposed to feel sorry for because his politician mother sent him to Jedi boarding school and did not tell him Vader was his grandpa, and his racing magnate father was not Force sensitive and travelled for his job. Or because he has puppy eyes and wobbly lips.
     
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  5. Bee Bee

    Bee Bee Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    The ST era could have been so interesting had the writers actually tried to develop anything rather than hit the reset button. Instead the writers literally blow up the New Republic before we can learn almost anything about it just so we can go back to rebels vs Empire. By the end of the ST we're left at basically the same place we left off at the end of ROTJ. Sidious is killed *again*, the Empire and its fleets are defeated in a major battle, the Republic needs to be rebuilt, the Jedi order needs to be revived by the last remaining Jedi again... It feels like you can just skip this whole time period and not miss much.
     
  6. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Yeah, forgive me for expecting the New Republic instead of the Empire 2.0 ruling the galaxy after ROTJ.
     
  7. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    New Republic did, it onlt fell apart 30 years later and one year conflict, then New Republic will return.
     
  8. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    In other words is was built so poorly by Leia and the Rebellion that it was toppled within their lifetime, and Rey had to save them so she could rebuild it herself.
     
  9. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Rey wont rebuild the Republic, the Jedi yess. And yes the Rebellion rebuild it poorly and too soon.
     
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  10. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    My post was "extremely long" because I responded to each of your points one by one in a thoughtful manner. If you don't feel like doing the same, we can just move on.

    You are wrong about Palpatine's rise to power. As you can tell by some of the other responses here, you are misinterpreting the story/missing plot points if you think Palpatine took over "ON HIS OWN." He took advantage of an already crumbling/corrupt Republic. Rewatch the Phantom Menace.

    1. The New Republic did come into power after ROTJ. The ST acknowledges this. If you'd have gotten a ST in 1985, or even 1995, instead of 2015...you'd likely have seen it in all it's glory. As it stands, I am anticipating that shows like Mando may show some of this as we go.

    2. At some point, the Empire 2.0 occurs in every Star Wars story/universe set after ROTJ. In the old EU it came back to damn near full within 6 years...not 30. Even in the old EU, The New Republic is ALWAYS a fragile government on the verge of collapsing.

    If you don't like this story thread....fine. Yet, let's not pretend that the resurgent Empire is some unprecedented convention of the ST. This idea has been around since anyone ever decided to tell stories that occurred after Episode 6. Just ask Grand Admiral Thrawn or this guy.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  11. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Once again, borrowing from Dark Empire and somehow making it worse is definitely not a good thing.
     
  12. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    My biggest problem is that I am presented with no reason to believe that rebuilding the Republic will go any better this time around after TROS than it did after ROTJ. In fact, since we never get to meet characters with a political background/training comparable to Leia or Mon Mothma in the ST, I would be tempted to conclude that rebuilding the Republic should be even more doomed to failure after TROS than it was after ROTJ.

    Same with Rey re-establishing the Jedi. Luke failed at that. Why should Rey be any more successful than him? No really convincing reason is presented why she should be. How do I know that she won't try to murder a sleeping student one night just like Luke? Or that she won't become a miserable exile moaning to herself while the galaxy burns?

    Same with Palpatine. How do I know he is really defeated and that he won't pop up again as an enemy? Like if the Death Star explosion and being thrown down a massive chasm wasn't enough to kill the dude, why should I believe that he really died at the end of TROS?

    The ST cynically and nihilistically destroyed all the accomplishments of the OT generation and movies. So that made it hard for me to accept the "happy ending" the ST tried to give me. Especially since the ST provided me with even less reason to believe the happy ending this time around.

    TFA went out of its way to proclaim happy endings didn't exist for the OT characters after all. So why should I believe in happy endings for the ST characters?

    It's all meaningless. That is the great nihilistic trap the ST sets up and falls into itself in my opinion.

    Give me the OT and the PT that were never nihilistic. Tragic, perhaps, but never nihilistic.
     
  13. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  14. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Exactly. TROS ends with 0 progress being made since the ROTJ, so why should I care, knowing it very well may be all for nothing as well? This is the exact problem with soft reboots.
     
  15. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    The ST having Palpatine back makes perfect sense IMO. The Fate of Skywalker and Palpatine is connected since Episode I. Its been obvious that their lives are interconnected. So having him back as the very big bad guy who is there from Ep I to IX pulling the strings while we have multiple Skywalkers face him, defeat him or loose to him and having a Palpatine by name/Skywalker by choice ending the reign of Palpatine is fitting and perfect in line with Lucas space opera and family story.
     
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  16. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2010
    ''It's happened before, so of course it had to happen again, it makes perfect sense''...

    Yeah, that sounds like the reasoning the writers of TROS had for bringing back Palpatine. Or the reasoning for making Luke Skywalker into a miserable hermit. It's basically saying that a theme is more important than established character development and lore. And that's not even getting into the horrible lazy explanation for how Palpatine returned.

    For all the criticism the ST gets for not being original, it does break some patterns from the previous films -- its protagonist is the clone-granddaughter of Palpatine, for freak's sake -- but with Palpatine's return there's this defense of "He's been the villain before, of course he'd come back and mess with the Skywalkers again, it's what he does!"...

    ...Then shouldn't a blood Skywalker be the one to defeat him? Maybe even.... I dunno... the original Skywalker who defeated him, and was prophesized to do so, while also having the deepest history and personal motivation to defeat him?... Because ''that's what's happened before''...
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  17. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I have watched TPM, AOTC and ROTS at least 20 times each, if not a lot more. And every time I watch those movies, I see Palpatine being presented as the orchestrator and mastermind behind the the war between the Separatists and the Republic, which resulted in him taking advantage of that war, then he became the Chancellor with the Jedi's blessings, then he acquired special powers as a Chancellor also with the Jedi's blessings, then overthrew the Jedi by convincing people that the Jedi are traitors, then formed the Republic into a Galactic Empire, and then by the start of Episode IV he disbanded the Senate altogether.

    Every single action that led to the Fall of the Republic, was taken by Palpatine. In fact, his master plan was initiated years prior to the events of the prequels, the murder of Sifo-Dyas and the order of millions of clones to the Kaminoans. Please tell me how the Republic is crumbling/corrupt in a way that would lead to the demise of the Republic, other than anything that happened because of Palpatine.
     
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The Republic was not crumbling. It was a slow-moving democracy partially hijacked by corporations.
     
  19. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    The ST just doesn’t feel like an extension of the saga because nothing is new. The PT and OT, despite some parallels, told different stories.

    PT: We see the rise of the Empire and the Emperor, Anakin’s rise to Jedi and then his fall to the dark side, and the near destruction of the Jedi
    OT: The fall of the Empire and the death of the Emperor, Luke’s becoming a Jedi and resisting the dark side, redeeming his father in the process
    ST: The Empire returns, Luke fails to rebuild the Jedi Order, the New Republic is a massive failure and gets destroyed, and Palpatine is alive.

    If you like the ST that’s fine, but let’s not pretend like that was the direction ROTJ was pointing to. I think most people wanted to see how the characters progress, not regress. And on top of that, Rey defeating Palpatine doesn’t mean “three generations of Skywalkers defeated him.” First, she isn’t a Skywalker, she’s a Palpatine who stole the Skywalker name. Second, Palpatine was killed by Anakin, and Anakin only. A guy who’s basically not even mentioned in the sequels, and his one line to Rey is basically saying “yeah, do the same thing I did to this guy 30 years ago, but for real this time.” So basically Rey takes all the accomplishments of the original characters.

    - She is expected to help build the New New Republic after Leia failed
    - She is expected to build the New New Jedi Order after Luke failed
    - She helped turn Ben Solo to the light after Han failed
    - She killed Palpatine after Anakin failed

    There were plenty of directions for her story to go that didn’t involve screwing over every established character, and it would’ve made her unique in her own way.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  20. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Shifting goals posts to a different argument. Basically you have been taking the ST to task for "destroying the legacy" of the OT characters..not because it borrowed other SW stories.

    Again, a resurrected Emperor, a resurgent Empire, a dark Luke, and a fragile New Republic on the brink of being wiped out have always been part of the Post ROTJ galaxy.

    If you don't like these elements....fine. Yet, you must recognize: these are NOT new precedents set by the ST, but have been elements present the post ROTJ adventures of Luke Skywalker since George Lucas was running things.

    One could argue this about countless movie sequels including Return of the Jedi.*

    *Another trip to Tatooine, another cantina palace full of creatures/aliens, another Death Star, another Death Star Battle, another lightsaber duel, another pasty white guy holding Vader's leash dies, another premature victory celebration for "..freeing the galaxy."

    "It's like poetry....it rhymes." George Lucas

    Not helping your own argument. You are right. Even if you don't like it.


    Maybe. It think it's cool that Palpatine is essentially destroyed by himself. I think Rey presents a great message. The heir to Palpatine's powerful legacy of evil and hate is loved by the Skywalkers and chooses to be one herself.

    The original Skywalker is Luke. Most of what Anakin does/doesn't do in the PT is because of what Luke did/didn't before.

    @DarthFixxxer

    George Lucas portrayed both the Jedi and the Republic as flawed. He meant to:

    "In ancient Rome, why did the senate after killing Caesar turn around and give the government to his nephew? Why did France after they got rid of the king and that whole system turn around and give it to Napoleon?"

    "....It’s the same thing with Germany and Hitler. You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody’s squabbling, there’s corruption.
    -George when Lucas discussing the Prequel Trilogy.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  21. clone commander bossk

    clone commander bossk Ostrich Velocity Expert star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2019
    This
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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  22. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Are you talking to me with this? If so, how about you @jaimestarr me?
     
  23. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    The idea that anyone can rise to power on their own is a childish notion. Might as well claim that Sheev Palpatine, of the noble House of Palpatine, apprentice to Darth Plagueis, was a "self made man". Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, the entire Separatist faction of thousands of planets; who are they?

    Palpatine was there behind it all, but the Republic and the Senate must have been corruptible in order to be so corrupted. The system had to be deeply flawed to be so deeply corrupted. All the Senators had to do was refuse his bribes; it's clear by the PT that there are still a few good Senators, but there are also many who are happy to sell their votes. This is corruption in itself, regardless of Palpatine. Anyone could have come along and bribed them.

    It's not a question of the chicken or the egg. Palpatine could not have corrupted the Republic unless it was already corruptible. The Republic was corrupt first, then Palpatine came along. This must be true.

    To piggyback off what Dandelo said, indeed, if the Republic was not already corrupt, then the Senators would have laughed at Palpatine's bribes and his plots, Mas Amedda would not have had so much power, they would have dismissed the baseless accusations against Valorum, they would never have allowed corporations to have their own seats in the Senate, would not have allowed corporations to possess fleets of battleships and battle droids that they are helpless to resist, they would not have allowed the Trade Federation to blockade and starve an entire planet, they would not have allowed Lott Dod to speak out of turn multiple times, they would not have voted for a commission to investigate instead of forcing the Trade Federation to end the blockade and starvation of the people of Naboo, etc. None of these things can happen unless the Republic was corrupt in the first place.

    We see that slavery still exists on Tatooine (don't bother saying Tatooine is not part of the Republic, the situation on Tatooine is not part of my argument), and the same thing is basically happening to the Republic. Naboo is about to be enslaved at gunpoint, and it is not the Republic/Senate that stops it, but the heroic actions of the people of Naboo (Gungans included), two Jedi, and a recently freed slave boy. It's pretty clear that Naboo narrowly avoided a fate many other planets had already suffered. Any government that allows such a fate clearly lacks a conscience and is inherently corrupt, without the need for a great corrupting influence.

    Palpatine is The Devil. The Devil is a corrupting influence, but only flawed, corruptible humans are led astray by him.
     
  24. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2010
    @jaimestarr: None of that repetitive stuff you mentioned for RotJ is on par with something like Palpatine returning. It all makes sense for what's happening, or at the very least doesn't interfere or regress character development or the ongoing story.

    And technically Shmi is the OG Skywalker, but that's besides the point. Point was that Anakin was the obvious right choice to finish Palpatine.

    I dunno what point you think I was trying to make about the ST breaking patterns; I simply meant that he ST doesn't always repeat stuff, so the "Palpatine's return makes sense because it's happened before" reason doesn't hold up.

    Also, Palpatine had already done a fine job of destroying himself before TROS. He turned Anakin, Anakin turned on him. He very much screwed himself.

    And the "My paternal relative is evil, oh no am i evil too? No I'm good" thing isn't new in SW, at all.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
  25. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    All of them manipulated and brainwashed by Palpatine and his disciples.
    Also, nobody said that Palpatine rose to power on his own. Nobody. This is a strawman.
    Rising to power =/= causing the Fall of the Republic.

    Corruptible is not the same as corrupt. And sentences like "the system must have been deeply flawed" are clearly assumptions, never presented in the movies. Also, this conversation is moving and shifting to many different directions, per the desires of @jaimestarr , who still hasn't refuted (and never will, because they are irrefutable) my claims in my original post. Nobody is claiming that the Republic was a flawless democracy before Palpatine. Nobody is claiming that the Jedi didn't do mistakes. Nobody is claiming that the Old Republic was a utopia, with zero problems. Nobody is claiming that slavery in the galaxy did not exist. All of those are strawman arguments that keep on showing up, even though nobody claimed otherwise. The original conversation was about Palpatine and his role in all of this, and the incredible notion that the New Republic (whatever that would be), would end up corrupt and implode from within no matter what. This is just an objectively false assumption that is based on nothing.

    No, it really mustn't. Again, corruptible is not the same as corrupt. This leads to very dangerous paths, and a line of thinking that people resorted to in Minority Report. "Let's condemn the Republic, because it was fragile enough for someone to exploit it". What?

    Nope, the word you are looking for is not corrupt, it is "easily manipulated", "easily brainwashed" and everything else that comes up in politics, alongside corrupt. Not every politician is already corrupt and seeking to take advantage of other beings for their own benefit (though many of them are). EVEN SO, the original argument was not whether the Republic was a perfect utopia and a flawless society. It wasn't, and everyone acknowledges that. The original argument was about who caused the Fall of the Republic, and that, is Palpatine and Palpatine alone, with the help of all the Sith that came before him, and the Sith that he trained. All of the events that you mention as examples, are events that happened because Palpatine literally orchestrated them, proving my point furthermore.

    I will remind this as many times as necessary, since the conversation is shifting for no reason at all. The Republic is not a utopia. It is not a perfect and flawless society, and absolutely nobody claimed that. Also, nobody ever in the movies claimed that "Naboo avoided a fate that other planets had already suffered". In fact, it is the exact opposite. This conflict with the Trade Federation and the Separatists, is the first in 1000 generations that causes the entire Senate to have to deal with this (and they miserably fail to do so, of course, because they are incompetent).

    The movies clearly state, verbatim, in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi, that the Jedi have kept the galaxy in peace for 1000 generations. And that they are the protectors of peace. The idea that because there was a handful of arrogant/incompetent/complacent Jedi Masters in the Jedi Council at one specific instance in time, then the entire Galaxy and the Senate and the Republic must have been a failure, is preposterous. If someone told me that on the Earth we are living, we can have 25 thousand years of peace and prosperity, but then there will be a generation that will suffer because of the acts of a madman monarch dictator, I would not even flinch. Bring it on. My apologies to that 1 out of 1000 generations that will suffer. Sorry buds. But not really.

    I don't believe in gods and devils and ghosts. But I get the metaphor. And yes he is. Most humans are corruptible. I would say all, depending on what one means by corruption. It still doesn't change the fact that the Devil brought the galaxy in misery and suffering for almost 3 decades, with his own acts and nobody's else's but his disciples'.

    This is all good and great, but I never said anything opposite of what you responded to me. The perpetrator is still Palpatine, and the Republic and the Jedi remain the victims.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2022
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