Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

Notice the word "maximum"

some dominate 1 episode
some dominate 2 episodes
most dominate 3 episodes
NONE dominate 4 episodes

 

Uh...

I don't think "upstaging" is actually the correct word, but I think you know what I mean.

I think it's all about perspective: what you call an entire movie, I call just one episode. In the total saga Obi-Wan is much more present than Qui-Gon.

We may have more in common than you might think, there's a lot of things I don't like about TPM either, only Qui-Gon's "importance" is not one them.

 

I think that his character is fine, but think that the role his character has should be switch with Obi-Wan. I really think that Obi-Wan should have been the greater focus. I think that he needs a better relationship with Anakin. Even though he accepts to train him and at the end wants to train him, at the end I felt like Obi-Wan didn't trust Anakin, thinks that he is too dangerous and finds his training to be a mistake. I think that Qui-Gon was great, but you could have switch his character with Obi-Wan. Think of it. Qui-Gon as a noble, obedient and honorable jedi master who has reserves about Anakin. Then you have Obi-Wan a young, headstrong jedi who insists that this boy must be trained. His pride leads him to go against his master's council and in the end train Anakin, thinking that he can handle it. To me this is one way that you could have had the Obi-Wan character in TPM connect better to what the Obi-Wan character does and says in the OT. Anyway Qui-Gon was cool.

 

EL Tom, that's basically the way I see it. Fine have Qui-Gon in there, but why go and make him the rebellious one, instead of Obi-Wan, especially when everything in the OT pointed to that being why Obi-Wan trained Anakin, etc.

 

El Tom, that's what people like Darth Torgo and my humble self have been saying. Even some who were gushers of TPM, after they watched AOTC they have been asking questions as to why didn't Kenobi been the focus since the beginning.

Excellent post!

 

WEll, Lucas said on the DVD commentary that he is using Obi-Wan as the centering device through the saga. In TPM Obi is the stright one compared to Qui-Gon. In AOTC he is the straight one compared to Anakin. And in the OT he is the stright one and tries to keep Luke level headed.

 

>>>>I think that Qui-Gon was great, but you could have switch his character with Obi-Wan. Think of it. Qui-Gon as a noble, obedient and honorable jedi master who has reserves about Anakin. Then you have Obi-Wan a young, headstrong jedi who insists that this boy must be trained.

I don't know- if Qui Gon was the obedient Jedi Master, and not the lying, cheating, stealing bender of the rules that he is, then the connection to Dooku (assuming that Dooku does really want to destroy the Sith, and has embraced the Dark Side because he doesn't think the Jedi are capable of getting the job done, as they're essentially slaves to Sidious and the Senate) makes little sense.

>>>>His pride leads him to go against his master's council and in the end train Anakin, thinking that he can handle it. To me this is one way that you could have had the Obi-Wan character in TPM connect better to what the Obi-Wan character does and says in the OT.

Isn't that what he does in TPM anyway (going against the council, rather than his master)? Qui Gon's dead, so Obi Wan decides that he can handle training the boy that the council didn't want to train, despite Yoda's advice?

 

I'm beginning to feel a bit silly conquering nostalgic arguments (which I surely can relate to) with mathematics, but I really feel that putting Obi-Wan in a lead role in TPM would make him appear the central character (who suddenly dies halfway?) of the overall Starwars Saga.

Excuse me, but that spot is reserved exclusively for Mr. Anakin Skywalker alias Darth Vader.

I think Lucas saw this problem and turned it into an advantage: Qui-Gon, for all reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

...but I really feel that putting Obi-Wan in a lead role in TPM would make him appear the central character (who suddenly dies halfway?) of the overall Starwars Saga.

Nope, it won't. Just put it in this perspective (this one's an old argument too, but I have a lot of spare time, so what the heck?):

For me, the way GL treated Kenobi in TPM, if he had done it in ANH, then we would have this scenario: Old Ben doing everything, from rescuing the princess to shutting down the tractor beam, fighting off scores of stormtroopers as well as Vader. And Luke...he'd just hide with the droids. It'd be an adventure with Old Ben and Han and Chewie, with Luke reduced to "Yes Ben" lines. Luke only has stuff to do after Old Ben died.

But this didn't happen in ANH, did it? While Ben goes forth shutting down the beam and fights Vader, Luke has stuff to do as well. The character wasn't neglected. He has his own personality, as opposed to Kenobi in TPM who was defined only by his relationship with Qui Gon. Even after his master's death, Yoda remarked (my own emphasis): "Qui Gon's defiance I sense in you". Yup, not Obi Wan's, no no. It's Qui Gon all the way.

And while both Old Ben and Luke were given enough depth, it didn't compromise the 'central character' Vader/Anakin Skywalker. I certainly have no complains about Skywalker's role in TPM (only the bloody acting ). Having Obi Wan switch roles with Qui Gon would do no harm to Skywalker's central role in the saga. While Skywalker/Vader was always the central character, just look at the OT and you'd see Luke was the hero, if you will. In the PT, it's inconsistent. Qui Gon takes the role in TPM, the simply dies and Obi Wan will have to continue it. Me, I'd prefer it if Qui Gon had Old Ben's role as the mentor, Kenobi had Luke's role and of course Skywalker/Vader remained as he is, the 'central character'.

And of you're worried that Qui Gon might be underdeveloped if Kenobi's role was prominent, the I invite you to read Oakes' rewrite. Qui Gon wasn't as idle as Kenobi was in TPM, he had to deal with a suspicious Panaka, he was the brains of the duo, with Kenobi doing the field work. A better illustration of this would be to watch the 'Batman Beyond' series (or the animated movie). Bruce Wayne was important, but the writers ensured he didn't eclipse young Terry McGinnis. Both had a role to play, and the younger guy wasn't reduced to "Yes master" lines.

Just MHO on the matter.

 

I don't know- if Qui Gon was the obedient Jedi Master, and not the lying, cheating, stealing bender of the rules that he is, then the connection to Dooku (assuming that Dooku does really want to destroy the Sith, and has embraced the Dark Side because he doesn't think the Jedi are capable of getting the job done, as they're essentially slaves to Sidious and the Senate) makes little sense.

The Dooku connection only came about well AFTER TPM and certainly well after Qui-Gon's invention. In fact they were throwing around the idea of having a female Sith after TPM. As it is, Dooku's connection is to the group interesting is interesting but it certainly isn't necessary to Anakin's story.

Isn't that what he does in TPM anyway (going against the council, rather than his master)? Qui Gon's dead, so Obi Wan decides that he can handle training the boy that the council didn't want to train, despite Yoda's advice?

No because the motivation is entirely different from what it would have been and it's more like a brief moment of madness than a real character flaw. So you lose that AND you lose the initial connection with the Anakin character. How much more poignant and interesting is it to see a relationship started with hope and friendship fall destroyed because of the Dark Side than one that was basically simply born out of necessity? Alot more, that's how much.

It was ridiculous to give Obi-Wan no serious character development or character revelation in the "introduction" movie. We have no idea what makes him tick, no sense of how being caught between his master and the Council all those years affected and shaped him--right there is the major shaping feature of the character and we got NO sense of it at all during TPM.

 

Indeed naw ibo. I agree with you there!

 

What ever happened to Torgo, anyway?

 

I dunno. Didn't seem like the type to get banned, mayhe he (it's a he right?) said some wrong things in the AOTC forums and got banned. *shrug*

 

Wow. Bummer. I used to watch him, was wondering what happened to him. Seemed like a level-headed "basher". And I agreed with opinions on Qui-Gon. Too bad.

 

Do you I Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?


Right now, I'm fine with it. Ask me again some time (May 2005) on whether it was necessary or not.

 

Lurking_Around,

It's a bit hard for me to enter into that analogy, I always saw young Anakin as "TPM's Luke"

um... that would make Obi-Wan "TPM's Han", so maybe you've got a point.

naw ibo:

The Dooku connection only came about well AFTER TPM and certainly well after Qui-Gon's invention

And? That makes it less valid? I guess that Vader being Luke's father and Leia being his sister are also 2nd class plotpoints?

Come on, starwars was not created in one day.

 

>>>The Dooku connection only came about well AFTER TPM and certainly well after Qui-Gon's invention.

Do you have any evidence of that? Because if that's true, then I can't see the reasoning behind why Lucas portrayed Qui Gon as a liar, cheat, theif etc. which he dod so much that there's no way it could be accidental.

Do you really think that after 16 years, Lucas hadn't bothered to think the story of the prequels through as far as creating the primary characters?


>>>>In fact they were throwing around the idea of having a female Sith after TPM.

I thought the "Sith Witch" was one of the early Darth Maul designs?

>>>As it is, Dooku's connection is to the group interesting is interesting but it certainly isn't necessary to Anakin's story.

I disagree- I think Anakin's story about how he was seduced by the Dark Side is going to be about how he tried to use the Force in the wrong way, but for noble reasons (eg. bring order to the galaxy, save Padme, hold back death etc.) With Qui Gon as the honourable Jedi who used the Force to cheat and steal but with good intentions (ie. freeing Anakin, saving a planet etc.) and his Master as a Jedi who has been corrupted by the power of the Dark Side, this is integral to Anakin's story- especially given the direct connection to Obi Wan.

>>>We have no idea what makes [Obi Wan] tick, no sense of how being caught between his master and the Council all those years affected and shaped him--right there is the major shaping feature of the character and we got NO sense of it at all during TPM.

Well, I thought it was pretty clear- in TPM while Qui Gon's there he's straight-down-the-line, goes along with the council at every turn- "But master Yoda said.." "The council can sense it- why can't you?" etc.

The minute Qui Gon's gone, Obi Wan literally picks up his lightsaber and carries on where he left off. That's his motivation.

And now we know who taught Qui Gon, Episode III is shaping up to be quite a film...

 

It was on the official site, I can't remember the guy's name. I know he's talked about it at conventions too. Darn it. I'm not real good with the name of the behind the scenes people and the so-called "Sith Witch" was still being tossed around for EP II before Lucas came up with Dooku. It doesn't make it "less valid", what it means though is that Qui-Gon's total takeover of TPM was not because he needed to be a connection to Dooku in AOTC as some people have argued.

You know, the films would be different if Vader hadn't been Luke and Leia's father. The OT would have been the story of Luke Skywalker growing to manhood and picking up the lightsaber of the Jedi Way reborn in the OT and the story of Obi-Wan Kenobi(teacher of Anakin Skywalker and Vader), the great Jedi who overreached himself with grave consequences in the Prequels. It would still have been the story of the Republic and the Jedi Order as told through the personal experiences of two central Jedi(or Jedi trainee) characters and Leia, Han, probably Bail, Anakin Skywalker and his wife in the PT era, etc. That's what it was going to be at one point and that's what it would have been if Vader hadn't been Luke's father. I think they still could have been great stories, it just would have been different.

Well, I thought it was pretty clear- in TPM while Qui Gon's there he's straight-down-the-line, goes along with the council at every turn- "But master Yoda said.." "The council can sense it- why can't you?" etc.

The minute Qui Gon's gone, Obi Wan literally picks up his lightsaber and carries on where he left off. That's his motivation.


That isn't character development, that's a plot device. There was no natural progression. Obi-Wan was SHAPED by being caught between his master and the Council for a dozen or so years. Yet we get NO inkling of any of that in TPM. It's as you said one minute it's like he's the Council's lackey and the next minute he's taking up Qui-Gon's cause. No progression, no internal struggles, no GROWTH.

Character development would have been if Obi-Wan had been shown struggling with coming to his own decisions, coming to terms with these two conflicting ideals he's been brought up with as he's about to strike out on his own, because he admires and respects both Qui-Gon and Yoda and the ideals he supports. You say he's supporting the Council at every turn. Yet on the other hand he clearly cares deeply for and deeply respects Qui-Gon. So why, when he obviously cares about Qui-Gon would he give so much weight to the Council's views? That's the sort of thing we needed to see for something that resembled character development, that's character growth. We are given no reasoning, no motivation for his support of the Council despite the fact that he clearly cares for Qui-Gon.

It also didn't really carry into EP II, where he is respectful of the Council, greatly admires Yoda, is not given to tooting his own horn and just generally is as Lucas described him "A straight arrow". He took up Anakin's training and then went back to being his old self(now I happen to like it just fine, I'm glad he isn't like Qui-Gon), just a more humbled through experiences of the last ten years which we didn't see, mature version of that self. So again, it was more like a moment of madness as opposed to a real character trait and as such Obi-Wan has never really gotten character development.

Obi-Wan just kind of "is". In two films, he gets almost no development(though he has a lot more screentime thank god in AOTC and he certainly puts it to great use ). A little more is revealed about his character but he doesn't really develop any. He's again, really for the most part used as a plot device. Someone has to discover the plot and get the war started and Anakin's too busy rolling around in the grass with Padme, so it must be a job for Obi-Wan. And don't tell me "it's Anakin's films" because in the OT even Han and Leia got character development despite the fact that Luke was more the central focus.

In TPM, Obi-Wan didn

 

I've never seen anyone whine so much, and so unconvincingly...ugh, give it a rest. You dislike Qui-Gon, whoopi.

Ciou-See the Sig

 

Qui-Gon's last words had to do with Anakin being trained. Obi-Wan never would've trained Anakin, Anakin'd never have gotten force powers or would have been assigned to protect Padme, and they would never have marriede, Palpatine never would have noticed how powerful Anakin was since he wasn't, and the whole OT would be demolished all because of Qui-Gon.

 

Of course none of this would have happened if they hadn't met Jar Jar.

J/K

 

"I think that he needs a better relationship with Anakin. Even though he accepts to train him and at the end wants to train him, at the end I felt like Obi-wan didn't trust Anakin, thinks he is too dangerous, and finds his training to be a mistake."

That's the point.

We needed to know why Anakin would turn against Obi-wan and align himself with the Emperor later on and it would be sloppy storytelling for Lucas to establish a better relationship between Anakin and Obi-wan because it wouldn't make sense to make them the best of friends in one film, being at odds with another in the next film, and then make them archenemies in the last film without providing an explanation on what cause them to turn against each other.

Having Qui-Gon be the one to find Anakin establishes the point on why Anakin is not entirely loyal to Obi-wan and why Obi-wan will fail to successfully train Anakin.

 

Anyone watched the 5 episodes in order yet? in say... one day?

(this is relevant)

 

No.

But anyway: We needed somebody to show Obi and Yoda how to become spirits.
Obviously, Qui-Gon Jinn (Whose name means something like 'spirit' or 'genie' of the 'Living Force'in Arabian and Chinese) is this guy. The main reason for the fleshing out is so we remember him. Obviously, nobody's going to remember some random council Jedi who gets offed in the arena.
Whereas most everyone will remember Qui-Gon because he stands out from the other Jedi.

 

So you're saying Qui-Gon's full potentional is yet to come in episode III?

or did you get all this from "Anakin! Anakin!..."??