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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Do you like the new canon?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    Strawman.
    I keep making this comparison between how TPM mirrors ANH without being a straight up copy.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011

    Okay you've established that your argument begins and ends with the opinion that TFA is unoriginal. Noted. This is a good topic and its being reduced to 'I don't think TFA is original enough', 'but have you considered this', 'it's not original enough'. Obviously post what you want but it's made this thread repetitive.
     
  3. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    It doesn't end there at all. In fact I've made many other points in this thread- lies about practical effect s, bad aesthetic decisions, low effort writing, etc...
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Your opinions about TFA revolve around the idea that everyone came to like Star Wars for the same reasons you did, and that everyone has the same opinion that you do about what makes a good movie.

    No one owes you an explanation. Dislike TFA if that's the way you feel about it, you are entitled to that opinion. And who like it are entitled to their opinions, which are just as "correct" as yours, and do not owe you any sort of explanation or justification as to why they like it.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well, you can judge what people think of my writing for yourself.

    https://www.audible.com/pd/Fiction/...f=a_search_c4_1_2_srTtl?qid=1506735162&sr=1-2

    For me, STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS has a thematic appeal and an interesting premise because it is a work which examines the role of STAR WARS as a cultural icon in itself as well as in-universe. It's about the nature of sequels and generational struggles with each new generation dealing with the problems of the old and nicely DOES continue from Episode Six just as Episode IV deals from Episode III.

    Revenge of the Sith set up the conflict between the Empire and the Rebellion as a remnant of the Old Republic's loyalists (especially if you consider the DVD extras canon). The New Order is the villain set up by the events of the Prequels while the Imperial Remnant is the villain set up by the OT. You can't just throw in the Yuuzhan Vong or something completely out of context.
    Instead, the new trilogy is based around, essentially, "kids who grew up loving Star Wars and became adults" Which not only is the majority of the Star Wars fanbase but also people in-universe affected by the events. I mentioned that the First Order is basically a bunch of Neo-Nazis, North Korea, and Neo-Soviet Unionist analogues served through the analogue of Imperial apologists.

    They're young people who never knew the "Empire" but were raised by its die-hard fanatics or have mythologized it.

    We also have the fact we haven't let our heroes retire as Luke, Han, and Leia have continued protecting the universe well into Old Age despite the fact they should have passed the torch down to the next generation. Leia and Han had to continue trying to do what they did best and we can see how, in Han's case, that was sad rather than invigorating and if not for Rey he would have died at the hands of a group of petty criminals.

    The theme of the new trilogy is about examining what it is to follow in the footsteps of legends and whether it's possible as well as the unhealthiness of nostalgia versus the actual health of being inspired or mentored.

    Its Star Wars talking about Star Wars.
     
  6. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    And that had to be done by making a clone of ANH because...?
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Any of my comments worth commenting on or just going to stick with TV tropes "It's the Same So It Sucks?"

    Edit:

    But did it have to be similar to A NEW HOPE? Yes, yes it did because it's about being a sequel to the Original Trilogy and not the Prequels. We have a whole generation of people who didn't know who Luke Skywalker, Leia, and Chewbacca are so we needed a story which followed much of the same beats. It also caused us to see how the characters had changed. Han Solo is no longer able to be a brash smuggler, Luke Skywalker has become the wise old hermit, and Leia is now the leader of the Resistance rather than one of its operatives.

    Given The PREQUELS started on Tatooine and had a huge role about them, I'm not sure where you get criticizing TFA for the same story.

    Oh right, the Force Awakens is COMPLETELY a rip off while the Phantom Menace isn't.

    RIGGHHTT.
     
    JoeBiWanKenobi likes this.
  8. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    You cannot explain why their laziness was necessary.
     
  9. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    TFA is a boring and uninteresting rehash of ANH with some elements of TESB and RotJ, held together with nothing more than nostalgia. The Heroes of Yavin are failures and shattered, and the New Republic managed to create little more than a false peace. RotJ demanded something more akin to TPM with the good guys in a place of strength for a sequel, instead what we got amounted to little more than the Galactic Civil War 2.0.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    If you don't want to talk about the movie, fine, I'm done. You win. Congratulations.

    So, who wants to talk about New Canon vs. Old Guys? I'm open for any topic.

    It's a movie about nostalgia.

    Also, how does one do a movie about STAR WARS without a war? Also, I think the New Republic was far more formidable than the Old Republic which was despicable and deserved to be destroyed. One of the biggest failures of Revenge of the Sith is Padme's statement dmeocracy has died didn't make any sense because we never saw any true democracy in her lifetime.
     
  11. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    How is that a failure?
    She didn't know Palp was a sith.
     
  12. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    So this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Charlemagne19 offered thoughtful analysis and discussion of the rich themes present in the film; your response is a snide remark that completely avoided actually responding to or engaging with anything he said. It's like you're not even reading what anyone writes, you're just reaching into your bucket of cliched insults and grabbing whatever's floating near the top each time you reply. Again, it's prompted some really fascinating posts, but frankly it's starting to seem more than a little insulting to those people who have taken the time to attempt a rational conversation with you.
     
  13. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    Pretend it's not me asking it.
    Please explain why you think that is a failing of RotS.
     
  14. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    The defences of TFA don't engage with the problem though.
    The problem being that they could have done anything and they chose to be lazy.
    All the stuff talked about in this thread could have been done without TFA being ANH 2.
     
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    In simple terms, there's no Golden Age of the Republic. Materialistically, the Prequels are shiny with beautiful space yachts and wadrobes but Star Wars isn't ABOUT those things. It's one of the least materialistic franchises in movie history and created the "used universe." While the Republic is WEALTHY, it is CORRUPT and decayed to the point the opening of the movie trilogy has the Republic powerless to respond to a terrorist attack on Nebraska by the equivalent of Haliburton. The Jedi are a oscified to the point of being useless even if they're the only people who can get ANYTHING done.

    Again, I never hated the Prequels and I like them but it's hard to mourn the Galactic Republic the way they're supposed to be in Revenge of the Sith. The Republic is an awful government from what we see and while the Empire is WORSE, I can't see a reason to mourn it's passing otherwise.

    In terms of a story arc, it actually doesn't do a very good job of establishing why we should care about the Republic or what it does for the common people. The only common people we see in the galaxy are Anakin and Shimi and they benefit not a whit from the Republic's anti-slaving laws. I can't help but think its impacts the Rebellion as well.

    If they're trying to restore the Republic, shouldn't the Republic be...good?
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    And yet, I liked it despite and because it was.

    Which ends the argument doesn't it?

    Is there anything further to say?
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  17. Darth Droid

    Darth Droid Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2013
    Anyone want to keep talking about the EU/Canon and not about the TFA/ANH debate we've all heard a million times by now?
     
    TrandoJedi likes this.
  18. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    Huh?
    We very clearly see a government that COULD be good, in contrast to the empire.
    We see the people who would have it be good within the senate.
    That makes no sense at all.
    This is where the PT double standard comes in.

    You haven't said this, but I saw this one just yesterday on reddit.
    I said I felt sad for Amidala wjen she hung her head as the Trade Federation marched on Theed, but then the person who I was talking to (our point of contention was lack of emotion in the PT vs the OT) said that he didn't feel much because her people aren't shown suffering.
    The exact same thing happens during Alderaan's destruction (not seeing people on Alderaan, not even Bail), but he wouldn't hear it.

    The reason I bring this up is because all these criticisms of the PT don't strike me as organic, they strike me as after the fact justifications for irrational dislike.
    I don't understand why you think it would help to see a more golden times senate when the story isn't about that. It's about a Republic that's beautiful on the outside but rotting on the inside.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Oh it's a double standard when I think it's bad but you think it's good but factual when I like TFA and you hate it?

    Seriously, I just explained why I felt this way and it's "irrational"?
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  20. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    It's factual that TFA is a blatant copy of ANH.
     
  21. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    And done.

    Again. No more talking.
     
    Jedi Ben and vncredleader like this.
  23. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    Present a counterpoint to "The PT is about a Republic that is beautiful on the outside but rotting on the inside".
    Tell me why showing a better Republic would have been better than that.
    I also dispute that we don't see a good Republic.
    We see a government where the Jedi are galactic peacekeepers and have the ears of the Chancellors. A Rebublic where the people decide things, not a single entity.
    The Republic in the PT is incalcuably better than The Empire, EVEN in its end stage decline.
     
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    So what's everyone's opinion on there being no New Jedi Order?
     
  25. Point_Of_View

    Point_Of_View Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 23, 2017
    Bazinga'd edit: Hell no. We will never tolerate anti-semitic or racist comments. ..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2019