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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Do you like the new canon?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Lol I don't mean violent in that sense. I mean violent in the way it handled nearly forty years of continuity. Violent in the sense that it got rid of everything instead of merely removing what was in it's way. As for literal violence, I don't mind it. Legacy and RepCom are my top favorites of the EU.
    You would think they were keeping the Lucas stories but that isn't the case. Where's the Force Unleashed? Where's the film novelizations? They kept TCW because it was fresh and popular. The general audience won't care if the games and novels are scrapped;The Clone Wars reached more fans.
     
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  2. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
  3. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    Do you have any specific example? Because I haven't really noticed the trend you're describing. And since Legends had zombies and the Vong, I think it would be possible to find numerous examples in both continuities that would be considered "needlessly violent".

    EDIT: Wait, so when you said the New Canon was "needlessly violent" you weren't referring to content or gore or anything, you meant "It's violent because it got rid of a lot of stories"?

    Man, below this I say that suggesting they killed off some characters just to piss fans off was a bit melodramatic, but "they declared a lot stories non canon, they're being violent!" is REALLY melodramatic.

    Alright, there's a lot to unpack here in this little paragraph, so please bear with me. For the specific changes you mentioned (Shaak Ti, Hobbie, and Jango):

    In an interview on eleven-thirtyeight.com, Dan Wallace said:
    (Dan elaborates on this a bit more, but this post is already going to be pretty long, so I recommend you look up the full interview.)

    I'd assume Shaak Ti being killed in the Temple by Anakin while she meditated was also based on this reasoning, since that's from a ROTS deleted scene.

    So while I much prefer Mandalorian Fetts and Shaak Ti in the wilderness of Felucia, and I'm not happy with the decisions they made, I understand why they made them. To suggest they did it just to piss off the fans is a bit melodramatic.

    Now, back to your original post. You say "there was so much they could've kept" and that it was "erasing stories that had no conflicts."

    But in that very same section you mention how you were fine with them axeing post ROTJ stuff, and wished they'd axe The Clone Wars cartoon. But there are probably plenty of fans who love the post ROTJ stuff, love The Clone Wars cartoon, and are glad Shaak Ti is dead because they hate The Force Unleashed. So if they just cherry picked certain stories to keep canon, not only would it confuse fans as to which stories were canon and which weren't, but there'd be no pleasing anyone since different fans would have different ideas on which stories deserved to be kept in continuity and which ones didn't.

    Like I said I still have problems with the New Canon, but if the powers that be wanted a clean slate, then I'm glad they did an actual reboot as opposed to all the "soft reboots" Legends had where new material would contradict the old and the writers were left scrambling to keep it all together.


    I've had this sort of debate before and I can kind of see the reasoning that if they're still publishing Legends books, casual fans would be confused by the "Legends" banner wether it's on an old reprinted book or a hypothetical new novel continuing the Legends continuity.

    But I've thought about it and I don't think the issue is confusing new fans from thinking "Wait, why is Kylo Ren called Jacen Solo in this book?", I think it would confuse fans who are already well versed in both universes. We've already had bits of them bleeding into each other, such as luggabeasts and Rathtars being in The Old Republic, Lothal and the Jedi Temple as Imperial Palace in FFG's RPG stuff, confusions as to how the Sith's red lightsabers work, ect. I can already see a hypothetical situation where they make a new Legends novel that mentions Darth Maul being killed by Obi-wan on Tatooine, which then makes people wonder if Ezra Bridger and Chopper are canon to the Legends continuity, and if that mean's Thrawn's a Grand Admiral around that time like he is in Canon or if he still had a lower rank like he did in Legends, or if it's actually retconning Legends to incorporate that bit of canon, and oh I've gone cross eyed.

    And I don't think "Legends" label is insulting at all, especially when you consider that in most cases when something is rebooted the old continuity isn't really given it's own name.
     
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  4. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    What would you prefer, Infinities or Legends? "Just as real as the main universe" or "half true in the main universe"?
    And of course a new EU book would be confusing if it referenced NuCanon. Here's an idea: Don't reference NuCanon! It won't be confusing if it is firmly placed within the EU.
    And of course killing Shaak, Derek and Jango's coolness wasn't to make people mad- but it did. They should try to respect the EU when it is convenient for them. I would never expect them to bend over backwards to not contradict some obscure short story. I't really wouldn't be hard for them to make an offhand reference to Shaak Ti being "unaccounted for", or Hobbie fighting at Endor, or something. They went out of their way to do something that would obviously upset fans of the characters- maybe they shouldn't.
    EDIT: But really, is the mere existence of Rathtars or Lothal too confusing. Of course TFA and Rebels aren't canon. That would never work. The EU isn't the One Canon. NuCanon elements can always be taken out of context; TFA is not canonized because Rathtars exist.
     
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  5. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    What definition of Infinities are you looking at? Infinities was literally just fun "What-ifs".
     
  6. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Outsourced
    Nevermind that. I just want the EU to be a proper alternate timeline and not a "legend".
     
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  7. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    It's literally just semantics. It IS an alternate universe, but it's called legends for that whole "There is some truth in legends" thing to hint at them bringing stuff into the Disney Canon.

    Out of everything we could discuss of substance, this is the bottom of the barrel.
     
  8. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    I hear what SpecForce is saying.

    What I think he is saying is to keep the EU intact as an alternative timeline, so we could still get stories in that timeline.

    Lumping all previous stories into a single Legends continuity kills that...a lot of those stories were not considered part of the EU canon.

    I lean toward two continuities not being all the hard for people to figure out...most of the time. But I'm not a firm believer. I still have people asking me who Anakin was...young Luke?

    Continued Legends stories would have been awesome, IMO. But...they simply are not doing that. Which I also get why. To not "understand" is facetious, IMO. Disagreeing with that direction is another matter.

    And I've said this before, why keep harping on this point, years later? Totally your right, of course...but it just seems odd to me.

    Expressing and voicing your discontent? Hoping Darth Internous will see and pass this on to the powers that be? Why say the same thing over and over?

    I'm trying to be more understanding of differring POVs... because I see a lot of argumentation devolving to, "I'm right, so F whatever point your'remaking and any evidence or other perspective that don't agree with me...I'm just clearly and obviously right. Period." A phenomenon I see both here and culturally.

    That just doesn't make for good or fun discussion... particularly for a fiction universe we all enjoy.

    I'm not arguing for shiny happy people holding hands...but I do think more of an effort to understand other perspectives will go a long way.

    I've been guilty too...to be clear.


    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
     
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  9. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    ...What?
     
  10. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 10, 2002
    I'm not clear what your whating about.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
     
  11. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I just don't understand where you got that from. To my knowledge, anything that wasn't canon under the old EU is still not canon in Legends.
     
  12. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    All previous stories...all of them..are now Legends. There is no seperate infinities. There just Legends and the New Canon.

    That is my understanding.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
     
  13. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Literally the first paragraph of the Wookiepedia entry:

    "Star Wars Legends, formerly known as the Expanded Universe (abbreviated EU), encompasses every one of the officially licensed, fictional background stories of the Star Wars universe, outside of the original six Star Wars films produced by George Lucas and certain other material such as Star Wars: The Clone Wars, created before April 25, 2014."

    Just the actual 'Background Stories' in the universe. No one is trying to say that Skippy the Jedi Droid is now canon because things got rebranded to legends.
     
  14. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    As most "Disney took my EU away" arguments usually are. Whether or not Legends represents the EU being "gotten rid of" or merely separated into a different continuity is literally nothing more than one's own perspective on it. I was interested in the "new canon is more violent" argument because it seemed -- momentarily, at least -- like an actual commentary on an aspect of the new canon rather than just more complaining, and one I was somewhat interested in exploring because I do feel Aftermath pushed the envelope of what level of "on-screen" violence is appropriate to depict in the PG-13 universe of Star Wars. Oh, well.
     
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  15. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 10, 2002
    That quote is not proof in itself. But even that can have interpretive differences.

    There is no seperate place they are packing Skippy. It is all Legends now. Seems really obvious and clear to me.

    I'd guess that is the general interpretation as understood by most...and your view is an outlier.

    Legends is not just what was considered EU canon.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
     
  16. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Yeah, I don't think I'm the outlier here. It seems like common sense that if something wasn't canon then, it still isn't canon now.

    The reason Skippy doesn't have a separate label is because he doesn't need one. That comic isn't being reprinted; it doesn't need a label one way or the other. Legends is primarily a way to distinguish the new stuff from the old stuff, and if it isn't being reprinted, then why would it need a different label?
     
  17. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    What Stymi is saying is that, as far as Lucasfilm is concerned, it no longer matters to them whether or not something was a part of Infinities beforehand. Anything that doesn't have their seal of approval as far as canon goes is put into this pile that they simply take ideas out of.
     
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  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Thing is - they are reprinting Infinities stuff with the Legends banner:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends_Epic_Collection:_Infinities_Volume_1
     
  19. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    In a sense it was canon...part of the canon tiers that made up the EU. It was infinities in relation to the EU.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
     
  20. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    It doesn't. Becaue those stories are, largely, not being reprinted and require no label. The lack of a label does not mean they are automatically canon within Legends.
     
  21. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    In the actual description for the comic, it says they're fun 'What If' scenarios. No actual label is required, because we all know they aren't canon with anything else in legends. Not to mention they retain the 'Infinities' label, which means non-canon in the old EU.

    I said Skippy specifically because its something that could be misconstrued as part of the Legends continuity.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
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  23. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Again, from Wookiepedia:

    "Lucasfilm considered all Tales 120 content that was not "completely outrageous or intentionally comic" to have some level of canonicity within the Star Wars Legends continuity. Editor discretion is advised."
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Sure - but the average person who reads them - is going look at the banner, and call them "Legends stories" not "Infinities stories" or "non-canon stories".
     
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  25. Stymi

    Stymi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    I think Skippy is a good example. But if publications is the only criteria, don't forget digital, all of which carry the Legends banner.
    [​IMG]
    But then there is the Skippy article in the Wook, which is confusing and contradictory. They both have it listed as a Legends story and claim it is not Legends.
    [​IMG]
    The Wook is from fans making an interpretation...and I think those interpretations can be wrong. As I think most will agree. Though I still think the Wook and all the effort that goes into it is awesome.

    So I'll take back what I said about your opinion as an outlier. Which truly surprises me.

    But I'd argue they have it as a Legends article--but then clarify it's not Legends--because there is no other way to label it.

    When they say it is not Legends, what they are saying is that it was not EU canon...when there was an EU.

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing