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Lit Do you like the new canon?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @Jedi Ben

    I suppose, granted you and I see the "Mistakes" of 2017 very differently especially where TLJ stands and that's definitely a degree to disagree....Although I don't begrudge people not liking the choice of TFA leaving off a cliffhanger. Something we are least seeing a sign of changing with the Post 8 Pre 9 stuff. New Books, a Comic...Resistance...Galaxy's Edge. Probably not necessarily what you and many others are looking for but hey I'm surprised they are as open about the Resistance/FO conflict as they are now.

    Also I guess it depends how many people "Want" or "Care" about a epic multi-media project or not. For me I don't really care and happy with what we got. But I get others people reasoning for wanting that.

    Do you ever think that if the EU rebooted after 2005 officially the discourse might be different. I get the sense post 2005 was a bit of a downturn (And for some it remained that way unless you really like 2014 stuff). Though IDK if it had ended in 2005 it would have ended on a high note.

    Oh and this is by no means saying "NuCanon is perfect" far from it. Both canons have flaws...It just depends I guess on which ones get to us or don't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I saw TFA 27 Dec 2017, I saw TLJ the next day - the problem to me isn't the cliffhanger, it was the follow through on it. (For instance, if Phasma's getting a book, that suggests a bigger role? Nope.) That and TLJ puts the story into a corner in a way ESB didn't, a time jump is about the only way out of it.

    Although if Resistance Reborn is a timid, restrained book there will probably be e-riots in Lit. ;)

    Now, as it happens, the way I have looked at the various Journey To campaigns is not to expect much. I tend to look for anything other than links to the film, especially after the Bloodline mess. I'm not sure anyone has established what Rian contributed to that book which shows up in TLJ. Yet, imagine how cool it would have been if there had been something, it could have been a one-second, blink-and-miss-it shot, still be damn cool.

    You're aware that this is the Lit forum, right? Multimedia is kind of what it's all about. ;)

    I think the sad thing is it could have gotten real close to being so. You only have to look at some of the material to see that. Even the First Order concept has plenty of fuel in the tank, they're just not using it. Yet, they had the six films to build on, the experience of Legends, a totally clear slate.... It had everything to be perfect.

    The flaws for the material are self-inflicted by the clear intent that the films get to do whatever they like. Now, I could live with that, but let's have some honesty about it instead of the claim that everything counts or whatever the latest smokescreen is.

    No reboot is ever going to be universally popular. For instance rebooting as you suggest in 2005 means, in hindsight, that we never get either the KOTOR or Legacy comics. No Stover Luke epic either. No Darth Plagueis too.

    The bigger problem to me is the declarations made around continuity. DC and Marvel sort of have continuity going for 70-80 years but it's a sleight of hand, soft reboots all over the place and everyone goes along with it because they want to keep it all running. SW didn't build in the escape doors those companies had into its continuity. I don't think LFL in the early 90s expected it to last so long it'd become a problem. Maybe they thought the PT would see a reboot, or maybe they underestimated their corporate colleagues desire to keep the income coming by preserving the 'canon' status. LFL's 'continuity tiers' could match DC's numerous continuity reboots for being baffling.

    For myself, the major conclusion I drew from the great reboot was that canon status didn't matter that much to me. Back to the new stuff: Of the fundamental choice between 'continuing adventures' and 'end of saga' routes, the latter tends to court far more controversy, which can give far higher revenue at the cost of a fractured fanbase. That seems a trade-off LFL are quite happy with, much in the way DR was across NJO.

    Fans leave? Of course they do, but new fans turn up, so the whole numbers debate some like engage in is one without any actual data to use because it tells you nothing about whether fans are new or old. The one point that does appear to be settled is that SW is going nowhere. So there's nothing to fear over people bailing because they can't have that much effect because of SW having such a high level of mass appeal.

    Where it all goes after December 2019 is the big void because, while here in Lit, loads of us are interested in The Mandalorian and Cassian series - if I can nab those on BR/DVD or Netflix/Amazon nab them, I'll be among both fanbases, having enjoyed both Rogue One and Solo too, I'm not certain the mass audience is interested in any characters outside of the Skywalkers. The two anthology films made money but less compared to TFA and TLJ. Unlike Star Trek, where multiple characters have been embraced at the mass level, that doesn't look to be so for SW. And the marketing for ROS is making it very clear that it is The End.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    DC has multiple reboots, Marvel has one continuity (albeit with hiccups but nothing like SW reboots or DC's reboots). They are not even remotely the same.

    The Batman in Detective Comics 27 (Earth Two Batman) in 1939 is not the same Batman in today's 2019 comics (Earth Prime Batman). Batman outright killed people in his Earth Two incarnation. Alfred was a new hire to Batman's adult career then, while the new Batman had Alfred raise him. They are not the same characters.

    The recent Astonishing X-Men Annual 2018 had Charles Xavier fighting with an enemy who first appeared in 1965, complete with acknowledgement in the 2018 issue of the 1965 events, and are completely the same characters with a 50+ year long continuity. The recent Extermination miniseries literally took scenes from Uncanny X-Men #8 published in 1964 for the time travel events. X-Men at the least is very much one continuity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @Jedi Ben

    Fair enough

    It is interesting looking at the Journey top books. TFA’s especially don’t really connect to anything like Finn’s backstory . Though I get your concerns about Journey to 9 books as well.

    I do hope once the ST is over the Rise if the FO is the first on list of things expanded on.


    As for Cassian and Mandalorian while I agree about non Skywalker stories my one pin in that argument (which I could be wrong) is that I feel these streaming shows don’t need to have super wide appeal compared to the films

    Though how the post Skywalker films cope is anyone guess.
     
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  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    [:D]And this is why I like talking with you Jid. You're not threatened by different opinions, you're not out to convert anyone and you know I'm not either.

    I'm not so sure about the TV aspect. It has larger budgets than it used to and it's not cheap. People will expect a certain quality of appearance and aesthetic for anything with the SW name on it. That said, I don't know enough about the streaming revenue to judge how large an audience they need to meet Disney's expectations - I'll settle for them being Disney channel in the US and Netflix/Amazon internationally! ;)

    We are pretty much getting that already. For anyone interested in the FO, Phasma is essential. The upcoming Black Spire is going to continue Cardinal's story, there was a fair amount in the TLJ novel.

    Changing tack, given the success of remasters, one of the biggest mysteries to me is why Disney and EA haven't done a KOTOR remaster. It'd vacuum cash up like no tomorrow!
     
  6. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @Jedi Ben

    :D


    Yeah, I'm not much of a TV expert either, nor that much of a expert on the streaming service so my theory definitely doesn't hold much water outside of mere guess work and quasi observation. My only parallel is that of the Marvel Netflix shows which probably don't appeal to a wide audience the same way MCU films though in terms of tone and mainstream appeal, although again that breaks down since the MCU is a very different beast with Star Wars. Though I would say that at least the TV stream does "In theory" allow for maybe more niche audiences (Niche maybe not being the proper term but it's the best I got) and smaller scale Star Wars, which I think more people would except on a TV level then on a movie level...Sadly.

    If only my friend, if only.

    (And since I forgot to mention this last time whoops)

    That's true and I do love most of these, Legacy though being my unpopular opinion I do know if you rebooted 2005 no Denningverse which I know many on this forum might be happy with in hindsight :p Then again that means many of the ST concepts aren't explored in those books either or TCW muddying the works in terms of overall legends but then again I think a few people on this form might be happy with that too so.....yeah [face_laugh]
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  7. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    With a 2005 reboot we would've never gotten the Essential Atlas and the Essential Guide to Warfare - the books that, for me, completed my childhood love of Star Wars. Anything I enjoy Star Wars related after that is just a bonus.
     
  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    True, obviously it's more a thought experiment considering how people feel about the post NJO EU which was around 2005, and 2005 being peak Star Wars to many.
     
  9. mattman8907

    mattman8907 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2012
    I like the new canon but there are some things I don't like, Like one of my favorite Starfighter Squadrons, Rogue Squadron, is getting the shaft.
     
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  10. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Some of the New Canon I've loved. Everything Claudia Gray has written has been gold for me. In Bloodlines and Leia: Princess of Alderaan, she really nailed Leia's character and captured complex politics and relationships between characters in different eras. Lost Stars was very deep with an almost tragic romance between the two main characters and really added depth to that Imperial era. Definitely a book I will remember for a long time. It had that haunting ability to stay with me. Master and Apprentice was another hit for me. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's relationship was explored and we got more insights into the politics of the Prequel era.

    I also was a huge fan of Queen's Shadow, and it was so awesome to have a book that focused on Padme, a character who had been largely neglected by the old EU. If the New Canon gives us more Padme or more Prequel stories, I will totally be on board with that. In general, I feel like we've gotten more books with female protagonists such as Leia and Padme in the New Canon than we did in the old EU, so that excites me as someone who was always a Leia and Padme fan.

    Some of the New Canon such as Lords of the Sith and New Dawn have been middle of the pack Star Wars books for me in the sense that I've enjoyed reading them but I don't find them particularly memorable or spectacular.

    Other titles such as the Aftermath trilogy and Phasma fell flat for me. Aftermath was painful to read with choppy sentences and a present tense that didn't work for me. Phasma disappointed me since it didn't really focus on the First Order or Phasma enough. I wanted something that was actually from Phasma's perspective and that would have showed more about her time in the First Order (perhaps exploring her training and how she might have been indoctrinated by a facist regime). I thought Phasma might be able to add complexity to the First Order soldiers in the way Lost Stars did for me, but it disappointed in that way for me, giving me a kind of bland post-apocalyptic world instead.

    All in all, New Canon is like the old EU in a sense for me because there are the books I love, the books I enjoy, and the books that ultimately fail to meet my expectations. I do think some of the future titles coming out this year such as Force Collector and Resistance Reborn sound very promising and I'm eager to read those, having already pre-ordered both through Amazon.
     
  11. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    One of my favorite Star Wars you tubers eckhartsladder goes into a funny but interesting conversation about how in terms of the Canon/Legends ...The more things change the more they stay the same.

     
  12. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    I'm really like the new canon so far, mostly because IMO atleast everything just feels more connected now then it did in the Legends timeline. I'm also a big fan of how they're taking characters from other media and putting them in the movies like they did with Saw Gerrera or having Maul in Solo. Although I am a fanatic TCW fan so anytime they bring something from that show into other media I'm instantly a fan :)[face_laugh]
     
  13. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Hey I'm just happy that the ST has become essentially Dark Empire in movie form and I can't be happier....The Dark Empire fandom is finally having it's time in the sun.
     
  14. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    I feel like one of the old canon's biggest weaknesses was that the increasingly-retirement-aged OT Trio stayed the heroes for far too long, and the fates of many of the new-generation characters were, uhh, less than pleasant.

    If the kids growing up with Finn and Rey today never have to see them get eaten by mutant dog-things I kinda feel like the new canon was worth it.
     
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  15. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Strangely enough I hated the concept of Dark Empire in Legends but I'm so far really liking the portrayal they seem to be going with Palpatine in the new canon if the MSW leaks are correct. Guess it's all about the execution of the story that they seem to be going for.
     
  16. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    A nice thing about the New Canon is that it gives a chance for fresh takes on topics, places, and times that had already been explored in the old EU. After decades of being written in by many authors, the old EU was becoming a bit of a cluttered timeline with less new places, topics, and times to explore. New Canon gives other writers an opportunity to explore those times, places, and topics in a different way. I like to look at it as we get to have a chance at two different stories especially since the old EU is still in print so I can still track down the titles in it that I want to read. It's like different takes on the same story. I've become more positive about the New Canon as more books in it have been released and I've found authors in it that have worked well for me. I've tried to give it a chance to win me over, and I feel like I've been rewarded for that.
     
  17. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    I like being able to actually follow the new canon from the beginning, the old legends canon was just so big so it felt impossible to read through it all.
     
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  18. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    If you think that's bad try reading an X-Men comic book. The recent Astonishing X-Men annual had the characters fighting about an incident that occurred in a 1960s issue.
     
  19. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    May I ask what incident they where fighting over?
     
  20. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    To be fair it's a significant one--they were battling the villain who originally crippled Charles Xavier.

    However, the All-New X-Men and Extermination series that recently came out had scenes taken from Uncanny X-Men 8 in 1964, which were nondescript scenes.

    The current Age of X-Man crossover's titular villain, X-Man, is a character who first debuted in 1995 in the Age of Apocalypse. Storylines go on for a long time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  21. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Yes, the old EU was so large I pretty much accepted I wouldn’t be able to read everything though I guess over years the new Canon might grow to be as large. Still at least I will have the advantage of being able to read the new Canon as it comes out. By the time I was old enough to read EU novels, lots had already been published so I was permanently behind...
     
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  22. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Yeah I know it can be such a pain getting into long running comics, I once tried reading spider-man from the beginning but I gave up 200 issues in [face_laugh]
     
  23. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I know I've mentioned this before but i do find it interesting if we can still divide it into phases.

    Pre TFA: The Early mystery years: Trying to get their feet post legends, not much ambition and could have fit into previous canon kinda interesting, always chipping in the margins.

    Post TFA Pre Rogue One: Taking a step into the future, trying to push the edges and still finding itself in places.

    Post Rogue One- PreTLJ: Cemented the Dark Times era in terms of tone more or less and starting to cement things in terms of the personal timeline.

    Post TLJ-Pre Solo: Honestly...Not much, Solo didn't move the narrative forward.

    Post Solo-Pre TRoS: Cementing the eras to "Age of Republic" Age of Rebellion" "Age of Resistance" and I guess trying to tie it all together as hard as they can. And a prequel renessiance.
     
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  24. Shadowrain10

    Shadowrain10 Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2017
    I really like the prequel era renaissance, it made me like Padme a lot more and made me actually feel for her death.
     
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  25. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2016
    That is not true I am reading the EU deeply from 3 years now and I already know almost all the lore of that universe

    Of course there are some stories or tales that you can not read but they are optional If you follow only the important Legends events, you'll be fine with that
     
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