ST Do you think more people will warm up to the ST 15-20 years from now?

Who says he has to be, to not be given what I think of as side plot C, and be tossed around into a story that is moreso used as a plot device at the end? I think his story in TLJ doesn't have a lot of personal substance for the character of Finn.

I think Finn wasn't really in charge. He was led around by Rose and talked at by Rose about things. And he wasn't nothing but comic relief in TFA. I think he had several situations of drama for his character. He had comedy, as well, but off the top of my head, only a few comedic scenes really stand out, to me, like Chewie choking him and the "i'm in charge now phasma" moment. I'd suggest his drama in TFA is more palpable and deeper than his drama in TLJ.

I've said as much before, but I'm tempted to call Finn's entire structure a filler arc. It's basically killing time to get him to be a rebel at the end. It's like if TESB started right after ANH and Han was like, "Nah, I only helped you, because I liked you Luke. And that Leia is pretty smokin'. But the rest of this, eh." And then the movie spent another 2 hours getting him to being a rebel. Why not? ANH doesn't have Han say or show that he really cares about the cause of the rebels. Why not needlessly outstretch that arc, for whatever reason?

Both characters of Han and Finn have a conclusion at the end where they put their neck out on the line helping people they've connected with, in the interest of stopping a planet destroying weapon. But for some reason, Finn's motives are the only one's we've gotta question at the beginning of the next movie and spend 2+ extra hours getting to heroism. How about Finn just wakes up, feels conflicted about the whole thing still, but agrees to help. Instead of relegating back to HAHA funny man, until TLJ can do it's own version of what I think is a very similar arc as the previous movie, but slightly different.

Finn was already doing things that weren't about Rey in TFA, and had his own connections. And he doesn't give the rebels a pep talk. He makes a declaration of going to help Luke. It's not heeded. Because... something, something, people shouldn't risk their lives for people.

Considering I think TLJ didn't do a lot to build on his stormtrooper connections, on a personal character based level, I think it would've not fully consistent to do that.

 

I was actually referring to the scene before that when he urged the disillusioned survivors to not give up. I think his character matured, as Poe matured, and also Rose, who realised life is more important than kamikaze missions, after starting the film as a bit of a fanatic.

 

Actually they were separated by the end of TFA; Finn was still recovering from his injuries and Rey was off to Acht To, and that was JJ's idea not RJ's.

Lot of 'J's around with these films, I've noticed.

 

Wonder how entertaining that would have been?

 

I think it's a good idea for us all to write our own version of the ST, doesn't matter if it's rubbish, and never gets printed on Archive of our Own, it's amazing therapy, I've done it loads of times, allow I'm the only one who ever reads them!!

 

Personally i have never believed a Stormtrooper rebellion would have worked. Even TFA decided not to acknowledge that any of the troopers mattered except Finn. because if they mattered it would have made watching them be killed abit tragic. when it wasn't meant to be tragic. no one watched Episode 4 and felt bad for the troopers. so why would JJ want to introduce that element into Star Wars now?

IMO Finns story should have been about putting a stop to whatever system was in place for kidnapping children or whatever it was. maybe even finding out some details about how that system works. but i ain't even sure JJ and Rian knew what that was about.

 

Or had Chewie just pick up Luke and throw him into the smuggling hold. Frankly, Leia telling off Luke in person was overdue, espeially when Han was dead and Luke did nothing. Then again, that would have entailed thinking about a character other than Kylo, and remembering that Han was dead (which relates to point one).

 

It was extremely obvious as well as public knowledge (via the leaks) that Finn had additional, substantive story - with Jannah and with Rey - that was cut from TROS through no fault of JJ’s.

John does not blame JJ for the massacre of his character. Neither should anyone else blame him for DLF’s virulent racism.

 

OK. Well, here's a modification on the logic of "If you're going a certain way, lean into it." This is not an original thought --I've said it here before, as have others--but Rey should have taken Kylo/Ben/whatever's invitation near the end of TLJ. You want subversion? There it is! It's the natural place to set some sort of third leg of the trilogy where they evade anyone pursuing them, go together to some sort of Force-rich place, deal with the legacy of the Jedi and the Sith, and determine who bends to the other's will. Meanwhile, the rather bland battle between the uninteresting First Order and the improbably scrappy band of Hey-Now-We're-Rebels marches on, perhaps in a more compelling way.

 

Yes, she should. because it would have been the last thing anyone expected.

 

TLJ was only faintheartedly subversive.

The clearest examples were, well, Luke, Kylo, and Rey.

Luke’s characterization rested on a retcon of his OT characterization - but that explanation was glossed over and zipped through. Instead of straight-out owning the retcon, TLJ buried it and relied on gaslighting instead.

TLJ worked to make Kylo sympathetic *but without actually saying he didn’t kill the students.* (It didn’t directly state he did kill them but that was still implied.) The movie just didn’t have the courage to stand behind this nee view of Kylo we were supposed to have by explicitly *justifying* it.

And then Rey - Kylo says Rey’s parents were drunken nobodies but the film never confirms this. I’ve seen the villain-reveals-harsh-truth trope before in films, and part of that trope is confirmation. (Yes - even ESB contains confirmation.)

This lack of commitment felt like TLJ trying to have things both ways. It feels troll-y because it combines attempts to needle and shock with a cowardly fear of the consequences of standing behind those decisions.

It makes it very hard for me to respect the film.

 

Lukes characterization wasn't a retcon. calling it a retcon suggests no one can change in 30 years.

Thats the ST in a nutsell. not just TLJ.

 

I don't disagree with that or anything else you said. I only proposed what I thought would be the most interesting extension of where TLJ was heading.

 

As today's kids grow up and the TV shows expand on stuff from the sequel trilogy, I think people will warm up to the sequels, although not to the same extent as the prequels. Going by toy sales and box office performance, I think the MCU has resonated more with today's kids. The prequels had stiff competition (e.g. Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter) but they weren't blown out of the water in the same way that TRoS was by Endgame. Plus the prequels were made by George Lucas well before the controversial Disney acquisition.

So while I can imagine people won't hate it as much anymore, it's probably not going to be as widely beloved as the OT or PT.

 

I believe when you guys say this, you are not taking into consideration the huge lore the PT created. The Rule of Two, Palpatine's ascension to power, the creation of the clone army, Anakin's origins, the Clone Wars, Darth Bane... GL's mind was simply at its peak of creativity then. There is so much to tell even now, 16 years after ROTS was released.

What is the lore the ST has created? What is it for to see? How Luke wandered around the galaxy living adventures? That could apply to any other big SW character in the previous movies. In fact, LFL has needed to pair Luke with Grogu to make the prospect of seeing his adventures anything of interest.

The Rise of Kylo Ren tells much of what was interesting about the ST lore. Which speaks volumes about the whole thing.

 

Amen to that!

 

There are some people that's going to accept anything with a Star Wars logo on it.

Disney/LFL lost their bet that being a large enough audience to sustain the IP.

Now they've turned the story over to Filoni - what GL wanted all along.

 

Uh....That's not what happened at all.

 

I think if GL had wanted Filoni to be the creative head of LFL all along he would have built that into his contract with Disney.

Possible he wanted that provision and Disney said no but I’ve seen no evidence of that.

 

I mean, I’m not saying that he did or didn’t want Filoni at the forefront of creative control moving forward, but clearly he wanted himself to have to more creative control on the ST than what he actually got written in the contract, let alone what he was envisioning for other people.