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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Do you think more people will warm up to the ST 15-20 years from now?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CrAsHcHaOs, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Not really. It's just the kids who liked them are online and posting now. Finding someone that hated them at release that likes them now... actually I've never seen it. Ever.

    I was disappointed by the PT, but I never hated them. I went and saw TPM a dozen times in the theater because there was a time I wasn't sure we'd ever get another Star Wars movie. Even then I had to ignore the bad parts (Jar Jar, subpar acting) in a way I never had to do with the OT.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    People will love the ST this time next year. This exact time too.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You are assuming that the only people who liked them were kids when they came out.

    There was a thread in the PT forum once that asked “What did you think of The Phantom Menace when you were a kid?”

    Me: I didn’t. I was 27 years old when it came out. I liked it then though.
     
  4. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    You're a bit older than me. There were people that liked the PT, but the overwhelming viewpoint by the culture at large was that they were a joke.

    Somehow, I went from a "they're not that bad" fan to a "okay they aren't that good, kid" fan online. I think they are mostly okay, undercut by the terrible execution.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I remember that they were considered a joke; I defended them online quite a bit. Dislike was not age specific though, which was my bigger point.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 likes this.
  6. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Perhaps your experience was different than mine. My "they aren't so bad" was an outlier among the Star Wars fans I knew then.

    Since then, the ones that fervently defend the PT without qualification (even I qualified my defenses) as good movies have almost always been children when they were released.
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It’s not helpful to stereotype people by age. It marginalizes and dismisses people like me who do not fit into the neat “all Gen X hate the PT and all millennials love the PT” categories. We can talk about discourse around the PT at the time without ageist stereotypes.
     
  8. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Sorry, but such stereotypes have held true.

    Sure, there are exceptions, however the perception adults hated the PT isn't imaginary. I was there and lived it. Late night comedians wouldn't have made so many jokes if they weren't pandering to their audience.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Not the point. My point is that by stereotyping, you are telling those of us who do not fit into the stereotype that we do not exist or that we do not count.

    I’ve also seen this with the commentary about “drawing women into Star Wars.” Right—because those of us who liked it from the beginning don’t exist. Or we were dudes and did not know it.

    It’s offensive and unnecessary.

    I would have to ask why you would assume that those of us who were adults and liked the PT should not count, and why you do not think you can make your point without ageism? It is possible to discuss a large dislike of the PT without insisting that everyone who liked it were kids and that’s the only reason they could possibly like it.

    Don’t bother with “sorry” if you are willing to erase the existence of those of us who do not fit the stereotypes.
     
  10. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

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    May 12, 2020
    There are always exceptions to stereotypes.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yes, there are, and those “exceptions” are just as equal as human beings and those who fit neatly into stereotypes—so why stereotype at all? Insistence on doing so just looks like an insistence on marginalizing and dehumanizing people.
     
  12. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Because to dismiss trends, especially overwhelming trends, that can be categorized by demographics as mere "stereotype" without merit turns all such analysis into white noise.

    Maybe it is comforting to believe your viewpoint isn't the minority among people of your age, but I don't.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Why a lack of ageism in analysis of like or dislike of the PT into “white noise”?

    You can miss me with the patronizing comments about “comfort” while attempting to dehumanize anyone who does not fit your stereotypes. It does not matter whether an opinion of a movie is a “minority” for any “group,” using that as an excuse to claim we don’t exist is as I just said.

    If I were to assume at work that “all guys love sports” and “all girls love dolls” and only offer books about sports and dolls to people who fit the respective gender stereotype, I would deserve to be fired.
     
  14. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Learning about a director’s vision is fun but by no means should be a prerequisite for understanding a movie. I note that because it sounded like that was what you were saying. If you weren’t, I’m not sure what point you were making.

    You literally called it “deliberately awkward”….

    You’re really taking this personally, aren’t you.

    Um, didn’t you literally call the movies’ dialogue “weird shakespearian”? If you’re going to try to gaslight me better try it when your old post is buried several pages deep…

    Wow you must really have scars from the old PT battles. I never said I hated the PT. In fact, I’ve said I love the story (which is the most important aspect of a movie) but as films - ie, in their technical aspects - I find them flawed in ways that impede my enjoyment of watching them.

    This is…not responsive to my reply. The PT delved into slavery and had plenty of war. I really don’t care that there wasn’t slavery on Naboo; slavery being on Tatooine doesn’t make it not slavery or whatnot.

    If you’d like to argue that either subject is “innocent” etc be my guest. Otherwise I have no idea what your point is. If you want to hyperfocus on the aspects of the PT that are happy and sweet - and it definitely has those elements - great! But I’m looking at the PT as a whole.

    Saying the PT has slavery and war isn’t a criticism of it. But I find your view of the PT as incongrous considering these blatant subjects.

    Not to mention Anakin falling to the dark side and murdering children…

    That was the argument your words implied. Craft your posts better if you desire better understanding if the points you’re trying to make.

    Oh? Who? I don’t think a movie can be made, completed, and commercially distributed if the director was literally incapable of directing, competently or otherwise.

    Ooo you BIG mad.

    I see nothing wrong with being easily impressed by entertainment. I wish I were.

    I don’t know what point you’re making.

    Market research is a Big Thing in Hollywood.

    That’s not how Audiences Liking Things works. He knew this.

    George self-funded. He didn’t *need* audiences to love his work. But if he believed he had the right to make his vision without compromise AND have audiences widely adore it…that wasn’t reasonable. One creative controlling and managing every aspect of a movie isn’t necessarily a good thing because few filmmakers are experts at all movie-making tasks. But George seemed to desire creative control above all and seems to have had some trust issues due to negative past experiences. When folks around you aren’t willing to tell you your idea might be tweaking, that’s not the ideal creative situation.

    From my understanding of bts documentaries, I’n not the only one who thought this.

    Why? Aside from the fact that you think they’re brilliant cinema? One can love a movie without thinking it most people do.

    If you’re a filmmaker and assume that literally *no one* will hate your movie, then you’re utterly delusional. The most acclaimed and beloved movies ever made all have hater. And I don’t think Lucas believed he was making the next Citizen Kane.

    The tl;dr is that if George really cared about audience reaction, he would have taken *standard industry measures* to determine what audiences wanted. Neither George nor any other creative is *entitled* to a rapturous audience response.

    That is an astoundingly broad claim re 20 years of films and completely false.

    Some? Of course. All? You most certainly have not seen every movie from that era and you simply are in no position to make such claims. That’s 20 years of filmmaking you’re making oddly specific claims about.

    You mean sexist, racist, and confused creative decisions made by a studio and parent company as a result of clashing priorities, impatience, and genuinely bad actors?

    You genuinely think that’s “trendy”? That that’s what Hollywood studios aim for?

    That’s a…unique…perspective.

    Jar Jar and his antics, which were put in to appeal to young kids, and not because he served real narrative purpose. Padme in a new outfit every time she entered a room. Extended CGI action sequences seemingly designed to fit neatly into video games. Zillions of lightsabers. Many movies have gimmicks, and so does the PT.

    Ok that’s really creepy please stop.

    You’d have to talk with my friend about that. My point was about micromanaging, not about RotJ’s merits. It’s my favorite SW film.

    It’s my favorite SW film. There are aspects of it that are quite weak and others that changed my life. I’m perfectly capable of criticizing things I love :) Only a child insists that the things she loves are perfect.

    Not sure I’d care much who was responsible for a movie I love? Do you?

    Whoa there Rocky I don’t have a bone to pick with your bff but I’m sure if you google old theatrical PT reviews you’ll find where you can send your irate fanboy hate mail.

    Dunno why your PT fandom war scars never healed but I missed them entirely. Some folk watched the PT and weren’t enraged or enrapture. We just shrugged and found something we cared more about.


    Ya might wanna wander into the PT subforum or reddit or whatever if you desperately want to do battle with the hated PT slandering heathens.
     
  15. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    This is neither universal, nor accurate in any large sample audience.
    The tickets that the movies themselves sold, and the various polls on the internet, show that nothing was overwhelming, and they were most certainly not considered a joke by any majority of any sort. There was a significant amount of people who hated the prequels, yes, and it was an easy target for comedians in Murica perhaps, but where I grew up, the people who hated them were at most 1 in 10, and that is a big if. So if I were to use the same logic and reach to conclusions with the same logic as you did, then I would have to go around and say that the prequels were universally loved and overwhelmingly praised, wouldn't I? But I don't. Because that's not true. And it's not true that they were considered a joke by any vast majority.

    I crafted my post just fine, and I communicated exactly what I wanted to. You did not read between any lines, as you may think you have. My post did not imply anything other than what I expressed with my words. Whatever you think I implied, is oin you, not me.
    That does not mean wooden.
    I was not gaslighting you. Calling some dialogue in a movie "shakespearian" does not mean I am comparing the director/scriptwriter to Shakespeare. It's really not a difficult concept.

    I mean since we are on this topic, JJ and RJ were incapable of delivering a riveting scene in their Star Wars movies that was not plagiarism from any of the other movies. But I agree with you, their movies should indeed not have been completed and commercially distributed. Some of the scenes, especially in 8 and 9, are so amateurish it hurts.
    I also see nothing wrong with it, but don't expect me to answer to pettiness with anything other than pettiness. Can't be bothered to respond seriously to absurdities such as this.
    Well, it was nothing like it is today, 20 years ago. That's why some movies fail. And underperform. And no one expected that to happen. Regardless of how much marketing went into the project. But that's irrelevant anyway. Critical reception is very different from sales, let alone what the audience is going to say, and not just the critics. If people could predict these things, there wouldn't be any bad movies out there.
    Your opinion. I disagree.
    Yes, they can. But since I happen to think the prequels are brilliant, it is obvious that I would expect other people to love them too. That's what GL probably hoped for and/or expected, and I don't blame him one bit.
    No one talked about no one. Reaching to the extremes to make a point, but that point is not there.
    No it's not. It's a very accurate claim, based on observation and after having watched thousands of movies. The trends of film making are very easy to spot. It's not even that hard nor does it require having watched thousands of movies, which I have. Any cinema lover that watches a few dozens of films every year observes these things.

    I don't need to see every single movie to make these claims.
    The result was a failure because they didn't do it well, neither did they have a plan. But yes, the studios aim for what is going to bring people to the movie theaters, not for what will make a legendary movie with a great story, sadly.
    Nice rant, but I don't have any scars at all. I grew up loving the PT and so did all my friends, and we have watched them all multiple times. You do you. And no hate mail, just setting some things straight, since you responded to my post about what Marcia Lucas said. It wasn't me who initiated a disagreement with you, it was the opposite. So if YOU have any hate mail, feel free to relieve yourself from any strong feeling you have about the matter in any way you prefer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  16. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    AKA say you were kid when the prequels were released without saying you were a kid when the prequels were released.

    If we are going by box office, then shut this thread down because both TFA and TLJ are in the top 20 of all time.

    But we all know that the prequels becoming a cultural joke has nothing to do with box office. I was playing a mobile game last year and it made a joke about the prequels.... damn near fifteen years after the last one was released. Deny it all you want, the prequels were hated. That Star Wars survived is a small miracle.
     
  17. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    You don't decide that.
     
  18. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    LOL okay gatekeeper.
     
  19. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    They factually don't decide that someone was a kid when the prequels were released, on their own.
     
  20. Mac6uffin

    Mac6uffin Jedi Knight star 1

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    May 12, 2020
    Pretty sure "they" can speak for themselves.
     
  21. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    And the person i replied to can speak for themselves. Why reply with that?
     
  22. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    @DarthFixxxer

    I think criticism of the PT is a much more personal issue for you than it is for me. I’m not interested in debating someone on a subject I’m dispassionate about if the other person is talking like any common-place criticism of the subject is a slight upon his honor that can only be resolved by a duel to the death or something. Your accusation that criticism of George Lucas’s skill as a filmmaker equals personal hatred of him was the red flag I only saw as I was finishing my reply to you.

    I’ll leave you with this: criticism of a creative or his work doesn’t make one a “hater.” Plenty of folk who absolutely adore the PT can recognize that they’re not perfect movies and that George is not a perfect filmmaker. Better to internalize that otherwise you’ll be a very lonely PT stan.

    More on-topic: I don’t think the ST will be viewed inn15-20 years like the PT was unless the movies themselves are heavily redone. TCW really helped the PT’s rep, yes, but the PT as a trilogy, despite its flaws, told a coherent, excellent story, had a memorable aesthetic, and a unified vision. The ST doesn’t, and no ST-adjacent materials could fix that.
     
  23. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    It sounds to me like you should have stuck to the “What did you think of The Phantom Menace when you were 27?” thread. :p
     
  24. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    I know plenty of kids and teens that dislike the ST now and believe me there are plenty of them. You don't go from 3 billion to 1 billion by just making the adults mad.... I actually don't know any kids that actually like the new movies currently. They all prefer the TV shows to the films currently.
     
  25. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Yeah I know a few kids who really loved TFA but TLJ killed the ST for them (and their love for the franchise) and only one even bothered seeing TROS and she hated it.