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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Do you think more people will warm up to the ST 15-20 years from now?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CrAsHcHaOs, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Its like if you watch reaction videos on youtube. of people watching Star Wars for the first time. I dunno how they haven't seen it, But they apparently exist. but when they watch the OT for the first time, they ain't as in love with it as the early generation. and when they watch the PT... They ain't half as critical as the early generation. infact they don't even notice alot of the issues that people hated about them. I seen many people shed a tear watching episode 3 and talk about how it might be their favorite. but if you was to ask someone from the earlier generation. they would say Nah the OT is the best Star Wars ever. No contest!

    Now i can't talk for what their views are on the ST. as i haven't watched that many reaction videos of the ST. but i don't get the sense they are disliked.. they might be acknowledged for the very obvious lack of planning. but thats about it really.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yep, that was my son. Came to see TFA with me twice, but did not care for TLJ or TROS. Has little interest in Star Wars now, although Visions might bring him back, given his reaction when I told him that Star Wars now has an anime series.
     
  3. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    The market, money and decision making fell right in line behind those few kids.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  4. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I was 18 when the first one was released, and 24 when ROTS was released. So were all my friends. Another good guess by you.

    All of what you say is your own reality. Thankfully, it's not everyone's reality. People have a tendency to convince themselves that what they want to be real, is indeed real.

    The word "perfect" is used by you, not me. And I've got tons of friends who see things the way I do, and we like to think we can see the big picture when it comes to the prequels, and we can appreciate them for what they are and for all the positives they had. There are many elements in film making where the prequels are the best trilogy out of the two canonical ones, and certainly better than the expensive fan-fiction one. So, neither a stan, nor lonely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  5. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    To answer the thread's question: anything is possible. I've never expected Godfather III to get more appreciation but what do you know. That said, it's probably more deserving of it than the ST as a whole ;)

    The main problem with the ST is that they're not a good follow-up to the first six because they utterly destroy the original characters' legacy and then basically soft-reboot the OT with barely a connection to the prequels. If you watch the prequels first, wouldn't you want to get an update on Coruscant and the Senate, for example? Or start wondering why Anakin's ghost doesn't show up and knock some sense in Kylo?

    Now some posters here claim the inconsistencies will be less visible if you watch all the movies vs. waiting a couple of years between releases... but isn't the opposite true? Of course, the OT has its retcons and the PT is not 100% consistent either but it doesn't detract from the overall story. The lack of worldbuilding will not help with the rewatchability. Even if the movies are fun the first time you're watching them there's no hidden depth to be explored on repeat viewings (unlike the original six).

    Finally, it's true that a lot of the passionate defenders of the prequels used to be kids when the watched them... how many new fans did the ST create? Judging by the falling toy sales and lack of engaging media tie-ins, not too many. The recent CN Star Wars promo trailer didn't even include the sequel movies (but it did include R1...).

    Another area that's often ignored is the international market - but it's getting more and more important since the prequels era. As an international fan, I can tell you the prequels were received much better outside of the English-speaking countries even during the initial release and certainly gained appreciation long before the Disney sale. By contrast, the sequels were actually more disliked right away. I could barely find anything positive even about TFA on non-English speaking boards and social media. The example with the severe drop in the Chinese box office is quite telling. Countries with no special attachment to the OT want less nostalgia and more new and exciting stories... the ST didn't even manage to topple the Duel of the Fates in terms of the spectacle. Seriously, any movie or TV show can do space combat these days... but the lightsaber duels is one thing that's uniquely Star Wars and they couldn't even do that right with all their resources. That's truly embarrassing.

    So, while I think the ST won't be hated... it won't be all that well liked either by itself, without their connection to the OT.
     
  6. DarkLordoftheFins

    DarkLordoftheFins Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2007
    I think the lack of a consistent plan will show more and more over the years, but maybe as more movies come out people will be caring a little less, as those are not anymore “our new Star Wars movies”, but “those movies when Disney took over and had not yet figured things out …”
     
  7. Gamma626

    Gamma626 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 6, 2014
    A lot of people bury their heads in the sand when it comes to criticism of the ST, but this is such a major factor. Star Wars clearly isn’t unpopular. We didn’t witness casual interest taper off while the whole franchise collapsed. Mando fever has been bigger than TFA fever. As someone who was in college, and worked at a daycare center for the whole period of 2015-early 2020, it was clear how kids felt. The amount of Grogu/mando merch compared to basically anything ST was staggering. Even as a collector, Mando fever struck harder than anything from TFA. During the start of the pandemic I sold my NYCC Mando funko pop for HUNDREDS of dollars. And it’s value has actually gone up from when I sold it.

    So it’s clear that interest in Star Wars is still extreme, it was just that the ST didn’t do it for people. And why would it? I don’t think the films are good, but even if they were, Disney so completely dropped the ball on the release. The saga shouldn’t have been diluted with spin offs and tv shows during the same timeframe, it made the films significantly less special. They marvel-ified it way too soon. Which is funny, because even marvel took years to get going. The hunger to make their investment money back was too strong, and they rushed a trilogy, and several spin-offs, into production too quickly, and it bit Disney in the ass.

    So in regards to the thread topic, no I don’t see the ST being loved in the future. I also don’t think it’ll matter much. Even as it was releasing the ST wasn’t viewed as an the big landscape changing events the way the PT and OT were. It was just a trilogy amongst a swath of other Star Wars content. It’ll be buried amongst all the other stuff releasing, and looked at more as an example of how Disney almost floundered one of the biggest IP’s in entertainment history.
     
  8. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    I agree with much of what you’re saying, but TFA didn’t become the too domestic box office hit of all time for nothing. You can’t get there with marketing alone. Enthusiasm was huge. The reception was huge. I absolutely agree that baby yoda as an adorable merch-selling meme is the biggest individual thing to come out of the Disney era, but baby yoda was and is exponentially more popular than everything else Mando. I’ve seen baby yoda stuff everywhere both nothing else related to the show. And s3 of Mando has ditched Grogu. Which frankly I think was a great choice and will allow thd title character to get a good, cohesive story. I think s3 will be absolutely fantastic. Less gimmicky, but better narratively.

    I will say, though, that while TFA was a gigantic success, this simply isn’t the same movie landscape that ST faced in 1977 and 1999. It was the only game in town in 1977 and still the Big Dog On Campus in 1999. Now huge franchises are the norm and the MCU is bigger than SW. I don’t think Ep 7 could possibly have had the impact ANH or TPM had.

    That being said, had Disney took some risks and not gone with the soft reboot approach - and I’m certain that they tossed George’s treatments because they wanted a soft reboot - and had they correctly managed the ST, the trilogy may have had more impact on the *franchise* and served as a better launching pad for future SW projects.
     
  9. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    In terms of a launching pad for future SW projects. i don't think anything would have changed. the ST being a better launching pad wouldn't have changed the fact that they are making a dozen projects all over the Star Wars timeline.

    As for the success of TFA. as long as you had the Original cast and enough recognizable elements from the OT to scratch that nostalgia itch. it was always gonna be a super major success. this was a project that was 30 years in the making. Something no one thought would ever happen. Although many wish it probably hadn't now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  10. maranatusIX

    maranatusIX Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2021
    If you only go by box office.
    Then Friday The 13th Part V: A New Beginning is a better movie than Friday The 13th Part VI: Jason Lives.
    When in actuality, Jason Lives was one of the lowest grossing entries, but also one of the most popular. While Part V has only recently started to climb as a popular entry.
    I had a friend watch I-IX consecutively as a first time watcher. He loved I-VI, but said VII-IX felt very out of place in the saga.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  11. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    "Apathy" among younger audience member is likely a greater indictment of the ST overall than any amount of anger or disappointment of it - and arguably more intrinsic to the way the ST unfolded and was marketed than necessarily its quality. The ST moved swiftly away from one of its hot young stars (John Boyega as Finn) out of bias and a disinterest, effectively gave away its second film as an epilogue centered on a much older character with a conceptually more "adult" and less escapist story (Luke in The Last Jedi), and while having the story and its spinoffs slowly start to revolve around the not-that-young villain from a skewed perspective because he was perceived as more "adult" as well (Adam Driver as Kylo Ren) rather than the main character... all while the franchise just kind of lost the spark of creativity in visual designs and spectacle (not for lack of trying, but lack of commitment and awareness of what young kid are going to find engaging - even some of the good designs are definitively "Retro".)

    So while older fans are going to be viciously divided over it, younger fans weren't even really courted as consistently as they would have been under Lucas.
    I would actually disagree with that - but only in some ways.

    The PT's genius in shoring up and dominating the youth market was centered on Lucas deploying the full power of LFL with spin-offs, expanded universe material, and merchandise - he was "Marvelizing" a decade before Marvel. Comics, cartoons, video games, kid books, young adult books, adult books, etc., were flooding the market place at a rate that, frankly, Marvel has sometimes wished they could do.

    But everything was focused on selling the era of the PT.

    In contrast, the ST's era of release was actually much more dominated by the OT when it came to spin-offs, cartoons, video games, and expanded universe material.

    The ST films were less special because LFL wasn't bothering to invest its resources in that area, but instead away from it, in the very era that the ST was trying to ape but also dismiss and mock (TLJ). Don't get me wrong - Rebels was good, Rogue One was excellent, and Battlefront II added some good content and characters to the lore.

    What the ST had going for it was one comic series that LFL and Johnson ignored (Poe Dameron), and a few spinoffs that saw the rivalry between TFA and TLJ supporting creators play out.

    The ST films almost weren't special by design - particularly once LFL started using some effort to try retconning away and demeaning elements tied to its most successful film.
     
  12. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    I guess you’re specifically addressing my pointing out TFA’s BO numbers?

    Firstly, its merch was huge too.

    Secondly, you don’t get to #1 domestic without a huge amount of organic enthusiasm and fantastic word of mouth. Remember that it was “soft reboot” and aimed to draw in folks who hadn’t necessarily seen the six prior movies. And it did just that.

    (I’ve heard folks protest that ofc everyone has seen Eps 1-6, but uh no they haven’t. Most of my extended family hasn’t. I know some kids who had never seen anything SW before TFA. I envy folks who live in such insulated nerd bubbles that they can freely make such assumptions….)

    A pity that TFA isn’t a self-contained story, like ANH was.
     
  13. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    The irony about baby Yoda's success that he's still based directly on what came before during Lucas's tenure. I've yet to see them to come up with anything as unique and iconic as, say Darth Maul. Or even General Grievous (his looks, anyway). I'm not even asking for the brand new ideas. You can do what Lucas did with the clones, for example: take stormtroopers and do something different with the template (storywise and visually). Seeing stormies in the same plastic armor again was just laughable (especially after their reputation was destroyed in ROTJ). Phasma was a decent effort but ultimately was wasted.

    Take a look at Lucasfilm 50th Anniversary Hasbro line... Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing anything from the sequels. However, they do have Jar Jar and Ewoks [face_laugh]

    Lucasfilm relied on nostalgia so much they forgot times had changed. What worked great in 1977-1983 may not have the same effect in 2015. Luke's story was aped (parodied, even) many times, and the rag tag rebels vs. big bad guys was old news, too. Lucas was aware of that and so structured the story differently plus had new factions, tech, planets, lore along with expanding the macro story to the dark vs. light side of the Force epic struggle of which the Galactic Civil war was but one instance. But the biggest mistake was not having any Jedi left (other than grumpy Jake Skywalker). Now, I'm not saying there's no place for non-Jedi in the Star Wars Universe, far from it, but you have to admit, the Jedi Order and the Force philosophy is the most unique and fascinating aspect of Star Wars. And yes, the duels should both serve the story and have the wow factor. Instead, RJ decided to subvert expectations and not even have a proper duel in TLJ... while KK and Iger apparently decided it was a good idea. Still wondering, what they were thinking at the time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  14. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Nostalgia is a quick buck.
     
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  15. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    @Daxon101 But you end up losing long term. I mean, some nostalgia is fine (even the PT had it). But complete lack of imagination is not the way forward.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  16. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    not necessarily, we’ve seen multiple attempts from multiple franchises over that last decade, many have not done well at all, some have been outright dreadful

    it’s more important to tell an interesting story about interesting characters, whether those characters are new or old ones
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  17. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    More so than not.
     
  18. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    what?

    nostalgia is more important that good story telling and interesting characters?

    I definitely don’t agree if that’s what you’re saying
     
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  19. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    More so than not Nostalgia makes money. This is something that Disney knows all too well.

    There are times when it doesn't. but often projects are more likely to get greenlit if there is some nostalgia value to them.

    For example Disneys live-action Aladdin made over a billion. do you think if Disney had just told the story of Aladdin in a new and original way with the best script possible it would have made that much over the Nostalgia 1994 throw back?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  20. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    except like I just said, there’s multiple franchises who thought exactly that way, that the nostalgia alone would make money, and haven’t worked out that way

    look at the Gi Joe franchise, those movies aren’t really making money, neither are the Transformers films except overseas, there’s several other attempts to take some beloved 80s franchise and make a movie franchise, the recent Ghostbusters films haven’t been successful, heck even some of the recent DC films haven’t been successful despite featuring characters as iconic as Superman and Batman

    bringing this back to Star Wars and the ST, the first film wasn’t successful for its nostalgia alone, it was successful because it introduced several new exciting characters in Rey, Finn, and Poe, people were interested in these new characters, they lost interest when it became apparent that none of them had well thought out story arcs, yes it was fun to see Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, 3po, R2, and Chewbacca again. But it was the new characters that were the real draw and excitement, seeing all the old familiar faces again didn’t really do anything since there was no real thought story to go along with that

    I actually think the new characters continue to hold the most appeal from the ST, and whether they get good stories in the future or not will determine how they are viewed in the future
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Nostalgia is tricky, because it gives you a foot in the door with the audience, but you need to capitalize in a good way with it.

    Cobra Kai is a good example of nostalgia being exploited, while I'd argue that the G.I.Joe films, in spite of having some fanboys clearly behind the scenes, still haven't quite figured out how to actually exploit their advantage.

    TFA seemed more aware of how to use nostalgia than TLJ.
     
  22. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    yes, I agree Cobra Kai is a good example of how to best utilize nostalgia, while at the same time tell a new and interesting story

    however I think the new and interesting story aspect far out weighs the nostalgia, it makes it so new fans can watch without actually having to have watched the previous shows and or films

    Cobra Kai is as much successful because of new fans as it is due to old fans who loved the original film
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  23. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    At the same time, the tv show format gives Cobra Kai the narrative space to meaningfully focus on both the old and new gens. Movies just dont have that kind of luxury.
     
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  24. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    yes, but the ST had three films, and I think the first film actually did it’s job of both introducing new characters while also showing us familiar characters, it was certainly possible that the next two also do a decent job of both telling a story for the new characters and the OT characters

    it’s not like films are incapable of doing both
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  25. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Nostalgia is a safety net. even in Cobra kia, Sure they focus on new characters, But each season has some nostalgia hook there. Who are they bringing back? What are they gonna show ect ect.

    I watched Karate Kid alot when i was younger. but i haven't watched Kobra Kia. even though i hear about the amount of sequel-like callbacks it has and it does make me curious... i ain't that interested in seeing alot of the new characters.
     
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