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ST Do you think The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi should have had a bigger time gap in-between them?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Oct 7, 2020.

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Do you think The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi should have had a bigger time gap in-between them?

  1. Yes

    51 vote(s)
    71.8%
  2. No

    8 vote(s)
    11.3%
  3. I have mixed feelings about it

    12 vote(s)
    16.9%
  1. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Depends how you define "beats". The beat of a Skywalker actually ruling the galaxy would be unique, not repeated. The beat of an actual emperor renouncing the dark side somehow would be unique, not repeated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  2. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I feel like, in some ways, the lack of time skip is actually somewhat behind LFL ordering Kylo ascension ended and Palpatine put in his place.

    Arguably, he’s the character most impacted by the more static and stagnant character aspect of the lack of time-jump in TLJ; while I think Rey and Finn’s character development is terrible and comes from an ignorant POV of them, Kylo doesn’t really change as a character as much as the story tries to kind of reinterpret how we should view him - which is all a bit of an offshoot of the lack of time skip to allow Kylo or Rey to grow significantly.

    Problem is, that probably read to Kennedy and others as a sign that the most successful and reliable version fo Kylo was that “familiar” version. So after they got dissatisfied with him having such a short “redemption” story in Trevorrow’s script, they ordered Bigger Bass brought into change him.

    And it probably just so happened that Abrams, when he came aboard, was more likely to follow that idea as a way to try and give Rey a worthy villain since LFL was denying her her best villain - a strictly loathsome Kylo, or a sufficiently complicated Kylo.

    Bceasue it’s hard to resend Kylo’s really complicated after TLJ, and a Kylo already complicated can have a complex and unconventional ending to his antagonism to Rey, but a banal and unexplored one can’t have so much time spent trying to get creative with him unless it serves Rey's story... and there just wasn’t a good way to write Rey’s story of Kylo couldn’t be the “correct” type of villain because of a fascination with him by LFL.

    I mean, in a way, as unique as Kylo as the main villain could be, if you also demand he still get a conventional redemption story and be treated more as a conventional Skywalker... Rey’s getting screwed in that story.
     
    Shadao, ChildOfWinds and reyvision like this.
  3. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    What does the Emperor being a Skywalker change about the dynamic, if it's still a dark sider with a stormtrooper army? Similar with the Emperor renouncing the dark side? Isn't it essentially Vader either way?
     
  4. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Not really, because Vader renouncing the dark side is big bad turning against bigger bad, whereas the emperor renouncing the dark side isn’t. It’s some other dynamic depending on how it’s done.
     
  5. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    I don't think the time gap was the problem it was the fact there were different story writers and directors so if JJ Abrams was given the trilogy and filmed EP7 & 8 back to back then EP8 would have been far different and more like a continuation of TFA......
     
  6. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    The fundamental issue here was leaving the conclusion TFA so open ended. There was no choice but to immediately follow up on that final scene. Perhaps then the choice could have been also made to allow TLJ occur over a longer span of time than just a couple days, but that also would then break the established general chronology of a Star Wars film.
     
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  7. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't see a really strong difference. 2 characters are now 1 character. No matter what it's not really the Emperor. It's just Darth Vader, without the Emperor and less of something that, to me, has going on. What does this really change about the story? If you do the renouncing the dark side, it's still doing Vader in that way, with or without the Emperor character.
     
    godisawesome likes this.
  8. Jamtia1

    Jamtia1 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 27, 2019
    This is very true. I felt like one of the main reasons he hid Luke Skywalker all movie in TFA was to reveal him at the end. And don't get me wrong, that beat worked at the end real well at the end of TFA. But ultimately that beat didn't pay off post reveal and now when you watch TFA you are really just left with a shallow story because the beat isn't as effective since you know what happens after.

    Ugh if only he didn't throw the lightsaber away at the start of TLJ....at least keep that beat flowing for a bit.
     
    Shadao, godisawesome and Darth PJ like this.
  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think Luke can hand it back to Rey and not much be changed about the meaning of the situation.
     
    Darth PJ likes this.
  10. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The Vader character has more personal connection with the heroes, so it would be the difference between an impersonal foil (a bigger bad separate from the character ) vs a personal one (all bad within the character). The protagonist wouldn’t be able to attribute the antagonist’s inner conflict to another character in any way.
     
  11. Jamtia1

    Jamtia1 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 27, 2019
    I don't know. Refusing to accept it and give it back, and chucking it behind you are two different things to me. The first time I saw him throw his lightsaber behind him I literally laughed in a state of confusion. Like I know there was a chance he wouldn't take it being in exile, but to throw it away like that? Yikes.
     
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  12. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Eh, the Vader analogue in the ST has a clear personal connection to the older supporting characters, not the main heroes; part of the problem of TLJ is that Rey's relationship with Kylo is contrived and shallow because it doesn't want to be the type of personal relationship it arguably fits better - that of a vendetta.

    If Vader from the OT became the new main villain, then Luke's relationship with him, along with Leia's as revealed and Han's by proxy (Vader as a father-in-law from hell is a joke that writes itself) actually does offer anew dynamic. But Kylo Ren, the guy who tortured and violated Rey before murdering her father figure, maiming her best friend then manipulating her into greater torture and treachery for his own sake? That *is* basically the Emperor from a relationship standard with the main characters. There's also a weird thing where the desire for Kylo to pull an Anakin and get redeemed at that point is far more about him and the family story than it is about Rey, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Finn, Poe, or Rose.

    A Kylo who's not related to Rey is kind of stuck being functional for her only as a foil, especially once TLJ got done ruining any chance of that relationship ever having real nuance - he's a horrible, toxic bane for her, and nothing more. Now, I could have found him a very good foil if his main job was to "prove" that Rey Random was the way to go... but that makes him incapable of pulling off the Anakin-style redemption, because this isn't his story, and family legacy isn't the message of this trilogy - it's Rey's story and an anti-elitist message.

    Now, if Rey had been revealed as Kylo's lost little sister or cousin, the equation does change, even in just the impersonal and abstract type of bond - the Skywalker drama caused by Kylo is now shared by Rey, as is the burden of the Vader legacy, so even if she doesn't necessarily feel kinship with him, and even if it's more of a bitter jealousy and disgust ("You had everything that should have been mine, and you threw it all away!"), the ties of blood still add a dimension of personal involvement in his fate. And that also leads to a route to tie him into Finn and the other characters - even just supporting one side of a family feud requires more perspective and care than the fate of an outright enemy.
     
    Shadao, ChildOfWinds, 2Cleva and 2 others like this.
  13. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    I feel a time skip would've helped the story RJ was trying to tell tremendously. Since all RJ had Luke do was throw away the lightsaber :rolleyes: he should've just done a time jump. He didn't even seem to think Luke hearing about Han's death was important, so just skip forward. Rey and Luke could've been training for months, and Luke could've been reluctant to train her the entire time. It would make the fall out after she learns about what happened the night of the temple more meaningful, too. If he'd been teaching her for months, and she found out what happened between him and Kylo, that would devastate her more.

    Rey and Kylo's relationship is the biggest one that would've benefited from a time skip. For Rey to suddenly think Ben Solo is the hero the Resistance needs after talking with him for less than a week, only days after she witnessed him murder his father and maim her best friend, was just not believable to me. Rey should've been in a far darker place after training with Luke for a much longer time, and have been talking to Kylo for at least a year, for anything that happened between those three in TLJ to feel earned, for me.

    Finn would have already been with the Resistance, ESPECIALLY with a time skip, so we wouldn't need to have his arc rehashed. Maybe Finn would actually have a good storyline and his actor wouldn't feel like he was sidelined. We would've also probably been saved from suffering through the boring slow speed chase through space.

    So yeah, I think a time skip would've helped. I'm not sure I'd have liked the story more, as I'm not a fan of where RJ took any of the characters, but at least it would've been maybe a tiny bit more believable for the story RJ was trying to achieve.
     
  14. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    I don't think TROS mirrored ROTJ enough as I don't think it was a safe bet to bring back Palpatine that was to much of a gamble and was the backbone of backlash.....the safer bet was to keep Palpatine dead and focus on Kylo being the big bad and he finally redeems himself as the end of the saga and also throw more force ghosts in as fan service......
     
  15. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    So it’s bad to copy ROTJ in bringing in an intimidating main villain, but good to demand Kylo copy ROTJ in getting a redemption?

    How does that benefit Rey? Y’know, the more important character?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
    alwayslurking likes this.
  16. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Vader only really has a personal connection with 1 character directly, and that's Luke. Leia is the only living character who has this really.

    If Kylo doesn't have that though, what does him turning from the darkside really matter? What does the conflict really matter, without that personal aspect?
     
  17. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    It's just more dynamic to me and unique to the series. Palpatine's emperorship didn't end by him turning back to the light, so you'd have something unique.
     
  18. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Vader's did. Isn't this basically Vader, but ruling the Empire, in concept?
     
  19. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    No, Vader didn’t *have* an “emperorship”, that’s the point. Without a bigger bad, the big bad would have to save the hero from himself. That sounds more interesting to me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That sounds like the “hero” isn’t really the “hero” anymore; they’re a tourist and supporting character in someone else’s story.

    That's what’s wrong. Rey shouldn’t lose her Trilogy to Diet Darth Vader.

    It’s already disgraceful to make Finn lose his spot for Darth White Privilege.
     
  21. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Exactly. That just makes Kylo Ren the star of the trilogy and JJ was not making a Kylo Ren trilogy. Either Kylo Ren was going to stay the main villain our main hero Rey had to fight (with no redemption), or Rey fights another villain as the main hero with Ben Solo in a side role as supportive hero. They went with option two.

    Whoever the main villain ended up being, *Rey* had to have a connection to them and *Rey* had to come out as the hero. Making Palpatine her grandfather gave them a connection, while also allowing her to be the hero of her own story. I think it was done sloppily, but at least they tried to keep the story focused on Rey and her journey.
     
  22. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think similarly to the other replies. Kylo's not the hero of these movies. What does this mean for anything? What's not Vader, but without the Emperor, about it? If Kylo still gonna turn, what's new? What does it matter? What does this add? Why would Kylo change now?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
    godisawesome likes this.
  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I think not having a time gap was a significant flaw in the trilogy that made it feel as if each character was redoing their arc every few days.
     
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  24. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I never said he was the hero. He’s the antagonist. The antagonist saving the hero from himself is significantly different than the antagonist saving the hero from a bigger antagonist. In the first case, all the antagonist has to do is correct for something he isn’t responsible for. In the second case, he has to fix his own mess up, like Doc Oc or General Hummel or something. It’s just a conclusion the series hadn’t taken yet and would have been a better change of pace than resurrecting the emperor for a dynamic similar to ROTJ
     
    dinnertime likes this.
  25. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    There was plenty of choice. We didn’t need to see the scene of Luke either taking or rejecting the saber. What happened in the moments after TFA could have been implied in scenes set later, through dialogue and the state of the story. RJ wanted to show what Luke did, but it was far from narratively necessary.